A thank you to Brexiteers.

[scalyboy]

News item in current Fortean Times (or was it today’s Metro?) about a bloke who rocked up at A&E with unexploded ordnance lodged up his jacksey

 

[two sheds]

Nothing recently about downpours of frogs?

 

[teqniq]

Originally from Private Eye:

 

[Artaxerxes]

News item in current Fortean Times (or was it today’s Metro?) about a bloke who rocked up at A&E with unexploded ordnance lodged up his jacksey

So they do, in fact, like it up em?

 

[Raheem]

News item in current Fortean Times (or was it today’s Metro?) about a bloke who rocked up at A&E with unexploded ordnance lodged up his jacksey

This is probably the French guy from the article linked to above.

Say what you like about the NHS, but they never ask you to shell out.

 

[Karl Masks]

Good to see O'Brien using brexit to poison the well when interviewing Mick lynch on LBC the other day

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Good to see O'Brien using brexit to poison the well when interviewing Mick lynch on LBC the other day

O'Brien is a centrist, establishment prick.

 

[Karl Masks]

O'Brien is a centrist, establishment prick.

but he's not trapped under a cow

 

[philosophical]

Good to see O'Brien using brexit to poison the well when interviewing Mick lynch on LBC the other day

Well I like Lynch, but his position on the vote to leave stank, and probably still stinks.
Feet of clay.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

but he's not trapped under a cow

This is utter jibberish. I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Karl Masks]

Well I like Lynch, but his position on the vote to leave stank, and probably still stinks.
Feet of clay.

I agree, the RMT brexit position is not one I feel is evidence based. Even if that were the case it ignores the overall economic harm and social devision and eclipsed opportunities now enjoyed by everyone not an international financier.

However, Obrien's points are disingenuous. His line of attack is partisan and divisive: he's trying to blame Mick/the RMT for facilitating the verya ttack on workers rights now proposed by the Tories, by asserting that a berxit vote enabled them. This is true, but it ignores the fact Mick voted for Labour while Obrine loudly and regularly smeared him; the only alternative to the Tories. I don't know what brexit would have looked like under JC, but I'm not convinced it would have meant firing striking nurses - or even having the situation that currently exists where nurses feel compelled to strike for the first time.

IOW: Obrine is arguing with himself

 

[Elpenor]

This is utter jibberish. I'm putting you on ignore.

Alan partridge reference

 

[Pickman's model]

Alan partridge reference

i don't suppose aa knows who alan partridge is, and he's certainly never seen watership alan

 

[brogdale]

In his latest Substack piece, Prof Goodwin presents some polling data in which he attempts to demonstrate that when people are made aware of how harsh the conditions might be for the UK to rejoin the supra state, their preference for Brejoinery is diminished.


Whilst there was an undeniably significant impact when respondents were made aware of likely conditions of re-entry, I was struck by how little impact that had, and that still a majority of his respondents favoured rejoining.

The brexit project really does appear to have fallen out of favour.

 

[prunus]

In his latest Substack piece, Prof Goodwin presents some polling data in which he attempts to demonstrate that when people are made aware of how harsh the conditions might be for the UK to rejoin the supra state, their preference for Brejoinery is diminished.

View attachment 358551
Whilst there was an undeniably significant impact when respondents were made aware of likely conditions of re-entry, I was struck by how little impact that had, and that still a majority of his respondents favoured rejoining.

The brexit project really does appear to have fallen out of favour.

"in the second group [given details of all that rejoining will entail] this lead is slashed to a barely statistically significant [52 to 48] 4-points..."

 

[TopCat]

Well I like Lynch, but his position on the vote to leave stank, and probably still stinks.
Feet of clay.

He was/is right.

 

[The39thStep]

I agree, the RMT brexit position is not one I feel is evidence based. Even if that were the case it ignores the overall economic harm and social devision and eclipsed opportunities now enjoyed by everyone not an international financier.

However, Obrien's points are disingenuous. His line of attack is partisan and divisive: he's trying to blame Mick/the RMT for facilitating the verya ttack on workers rights now proposed by the Tories, by asserting that a berxit vote enabled them. This is true, but it ignores the fact Mick voted for Labour while Obrine loudly and regularly smeared him; the only alternative to the Tories. I don't know what brexit would have looked like under JC, but I'm not convinced it would have meant firing striking nurses - or even having the situation that currently exists where nurses feel compelled to strike for the first time.

IOW: Obrine is arguing with himself

What evidence do you have that the RMT position was not evidence based?

 

[Pickman's model]

What evidence do you have that the RMT position was not evidence based?

Just his feelings

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree, the RMT brexit position is not one I feel is evidence based. Even if that were the case it ignores the overall economic harm and social devision and eclipsed opportunities now enjoyed by everyone not an international financier.

However, Obrien's points are disingenuous. His line of attack is partisan and divisive: he's trying to blame Mick/the RMT for facilitating the verya ttack on workers rights now proposed by the Tories, by asserting that a berxit vote enabled them. This is true, but it ignores the fact Mick voted for Labour while Obrine loudly and regularly smeared him; the only alternative to the Tories. I don't know what brexit would have looked like under JC, but I'm not convinced it would have meant firing striking nurses - or even having the situation that currently exists where nurses feel compelled to strike for the first time.

IOW: Obrine is arguing with himself

Oh it's mick is it. Like you're on the same first name terms with him you were with Boris Johnson.

 

[Chz]

What evidence do you have that the RMT position was not evidence based?

I'm going to take a stab at answering for him, but I think it was the lack of any being provided. Both sides of the debate are seriously guilty of dreaming up sugarplum fairies in their head and then applying their wishes to whichever side they prefer the look of. There's scant evidence for a majority of things promised by both sides in the run up to the referendum. I don't think it's picking on the RMT, it's true of most organisations that put a stake in the ground on the issue.

 

[Yossarian]

Mick Lynch didn't become general secretary of the RMT until almost 5 years after the referendum and with no plans to renegotiate the issue on the horizon, I don't know why the fuck O'Brien would be badgering him about his position.

 

[The39thStep]

I'm going to take a stab at answering for him, but I think it was the lack of any being provided. Both sides of the debate are seriously guilty of dreaming up sugarplum fairies in their head and then applying their wishes to whichever side they prefer the look of. There's scant evidence for a majority of things promised by both sides in the run up to the referendum. I don't think it's picking on the RMT, it's true of most organisations that put a stake in the ground on the issue.

The RMT position was based on the aim of full nationalisation of the railways.

 

[brogdale]

The RMT position was based on the aim of full nationalisation of the railways.

Yes, but technically based on (contested) legal opinion regarding the prospects of nationalisation within/without the supra state. Although I rarely listen to the loathsome LBC, I did happen to catch the Lynch interview in a car and he did appear to concede that supporting Brexit with the primary objective of nationalisation had the potential to see worker rights undermined in the UK faster than they might have been in the supra state. Lynch was quite nuanced and is no fool.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I don't know why the fuck O'Brien would be badgering him about his position.

Coz he's a prick who used to write for the Daily Express

 

[andysays]

He was/is right.

<philosophical posting>

He hasn't solved the Irish border issue though, has he..?

 

[Yossarian]

It all seems like divide-and-conquer stuff to me, Lynch has been an extremely effective advocate for his union and trade unions in general and I don't care for the opinions of anybody saying "But he's a Brexiteer!"

 

[Chz]

It all seems like divide-and-conquer stuff to me, Lynch has been an extremely effective advocate for his union and trade unions in general and I don't care for the opinions of anybody saying "But he's a Brexiteer!"

I don't think, at this point, that should really be a deciding factor in these things. It's done, it's gone. I think Lynch does a good job depite the whole Brexit thing, because that's not the thing to focus on. He's managing the RMT quite well, and he's managing to protect his members without pissing off the rest of the public the way some predecessors did. There was some behaviour in the past that was great for members in the short term, but turned the RMT into the bete-noire/scapegoat for absolutely everything and that wasn't a viable long term strategy. In the long run, unions need public support to thrive and Lynch has been very, very good at managing their public face. I still think they were wrong to support Brexit (because it's totally possible to have a state run railway under EU regs), but in the here and now that's totally irrelevant.

 

[brogdale]

I don't think, at this point, that should really be a deciding factor in these things. It's done, it's gone. I think Lynch does a good job depite the whole Brexit thing, because that's not the thing to focus on. He's managing the RMT quite well, and he's managing to protect his members without pissing off the rest of the public the way some predecessors did. There was some behaviour in the past that was great for members in the short term, but turned the RMT into the bete-noire/scapegoat for absolutely everything and that wasn't a viable long term strategy. In the long run, unions need public support to thrive and Lynch has been very, very good at managing their public face. I still think they were wrong to support Brexit (because it's totally possible to have a state run railway under EU regs), but in the here and now that's totally irrelevant.

At risk of a major derail here... ...I'm not so convinced that having such an effective communicator as leader is necessarily a totally good thing for the interests of RMT members. I'm concerned that Lynch has made such mincemeat of the tory line on the dispute, (and achieved such popularity into the bargain) that the government will never allow the ToCs etc. to concede. I fear that, a la Scargill, the effective rabble rouser cannot be seen to win.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that it would be far better if the TUC had a Lynch to articulate class conflict so eloquently thus offering up a fire-wall to the actual unions...but I suppose that'll never happen?

 

[The39thStep]

Yes, but technically based on (contested) legal opinion regarding the prospects of nationalisation within/without the supra state. Although I rarely listen to the loathsome LBC, I did happen to catch the Lynch interview in a car and he did appear to concede that supporting Brexit with the primary objective of nationalisation had the potential to see worker rights undermined in the UK faster than they might have been in the supra state. Lynch was quite nuanced and is no fool.

I think he was stating a fact ie the potential rather than conceding anything . Ironically the proposed legislation on minimum staffing brings the U.K. in line with similar legislation in some European states including Portugal where in a mirror image we have railway workers , nurses and teachers all taking industrial action over pay , conditions and funding of a national health system . Workers inside and outside the EU are fighting the same issues .

 

[brogdale]

I think he was stating a fact ie the potential rather than conceding anything . Ironically the proposed legislation on minimum staffing brings the U.K. in line with similar legislation in some European states including Portugal where in a mirror image we have railway workers , nurses and teachers all taking industrial action over pay , conditions and funding of a national health system . Workers inside and outside the EU are fighting the same issues .

They are; irrespective of whether their polity has membership of the supra state or not.
A fact which has never strengthened the (RMT) lexis case, IMO