I've no idea where you're from and it was nothing to do with the accent just the character.
Fair enough.
I do agree, yes. I'm not on twitter and I doubt anyone here is really in the cohort you suggest.
Obviously my spokesperson for the working class thing is aimed at you because you seem a bit desperate to prove just how working class you are at times. My beef is your snarky remarks at me at and several posters being middle class remoaners because we don't precisely align with you on Brexit. It's a bit too purist, nevermind the fact it's incorrect.
This thread is littered with FBPE stuff. Do you accept that those posting that stuff might have some empathy?
Also, to clarify, I am not suggesting that all of those who want to fight 2016 over and over again are middle class liberals. What I am saying is the political form that remain has taken very much is middle class liberalism. It's limits are calling for the UK to return to the EU and some vagueness about reform (let's set aside the tendencies for unedified crowing about job losses showing they were right and the deliberate conflation of Brexit with the pandemic and economic crisis for now). As a political formation it has nothing to say about the crisis across Europe: populists on the rise in France, Hungary, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Germany engulfed in crisis, growing economic and political divergence between north and south, the sovereign debt crisis, the racist closed border policy operated etc etc. In that sense its become something more than a rational set of political demand and the actual real existing EU (which we were members of for 60 years) has been replaced by something else.
Fair enough because it sounded like you were depending on labour to deliver something. I think a whole load of factors contributed to them not winning in 2019 but I don't think you can attribute Johnson to remainers in the labour party. You can attribute him to Brexit and now Truss. You voted for it so I think it's leavers that need to own it more than remainers do but we're not gonna agree on that.
We agree then that Johnson and the insurgent tory true believers are the symptoms. However, as you say, we do not agree on the cause. All I would add is that it might be worth thinking through how things might have been different had Corbyn and McDonnell (two lifelong opponents of the EU in the Benn/Labour Left tradition) had faced down the remainers in their own party and set out their own vision for a post-Brexit Britain in 2017 and had then gone in to the 2019 GE fighting for it. Instead the only option for leave voters was either not to vote or to vote for Johnson.
Totally agree with all that but the heartlands being lost started a long time before this shit show.
In essence everyone on this site is on the same side as far as union fight back is concerned and probably more broadly, except for Brexit obviously. I just think dismissing everyone's concerns about the shit Brexit has put this country in as 'middle class psychodrama' especially on this thread is just as sneery as you accuse others of being. Loads of young working class people wanted to remain because the EU meant something different to them than it does to you. I'm sure you don't just dismiss all them in the same way do you?
That is not correct - sadly. There have been arguments on here about a number of issues - strikes in the distribution sector, agricultural workers, P&O and the RMT and other matters.
As for young people being pro-remain I agree with you - although there are important geographical and class differentials even within that group. But, once you engage and talk to young people you soon discover that what they want and what the EU economic union is are not always the same things. Their desire to be Europeans, to travel freely and to live in a diverse multi-racial society isn't contingent on our membership of an economic strategy imposed by neo-liberals in the EU.
The final thing I'd add is that I have refrained from posting on this thread for months. It's a circular argument, the thread isn't doing anything useful and I'd rather spend my time on here talking about the now - the economy, the cost of living crisis etc. But, when the silence is interpreted as 'a dawning realization that we were wrong and remain was right' then it'll need to be responded to...
