A question for those who still support a Brexit

[Spymaster]

Or you're making false assumptions. Not wanting bad things to happen to people who don't deserve to have bad things happen to them, who have been here in many cases for decades, and who came here under a very different belief about what coming here meant. What more motivation do you need to express opposition and see it as good reason in and of itself to oppose this brexit process?

Yours is a perfectly fair position. You've always been against the UK leaving the union for those reasons. That's not the scenario offered in the OP though.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Or you're making false assumptions. Not wanting bad things to happen to people who don't deserve to have bad things happen to them, who have been here in many cases for decades, and who came here under a very different belief about what coming here meant. What more motivation do you need to express opposition and see it as good reason in and of itself to oppose this brexit process?

It's not just a false assumption it's actually nasty. It is accusing anyone that is worried about this of only being so because now it's affecting Europeans, like concern on this issue is evidence of racism and previously holding a position of apathy wrt the treatment of people from elsewhere. It's a shitty argument and at best dismissive.

The other aspects of this like 'well duh, what did you think was going to happen' , 'suck it up, already happens to people from elsewhere' is a race to a very shitty bottom imo.

Europeans aren't being prized over those people from outside the EU who already have a fucking shit time and treatment in terms of freedom of movement/immigration policy etc. Surely it's about maintaining certain standards and rights so that those can continue to be opened up to others, not obliterating them and having to start from rock bottom again for everyone?

I think most people concerned about this were previously also concerned about the treatment of people from other parts of the world too, people tend to be consistent in their awareness and position on issues like these IME.

BTW krtek a houby you are right, this thread is littered with 'both indirect and direct thicky' and 'racist' accusations.

 

[andysays]

Or you're making false assumptions. Not wanting bad things to happen to people who don't deserve to have bad things happen to them, who have been here in many cases for decades, and who came here under a very different belief about what coming here meant. What more motivation do you need to express opposition and see it as good reason in and of itself to oppose this brexit process?

It's not a question of wanting or not wanting 'bad things' to happen, it's a recognition that if any country leaves e.g. the EU, there are likely to be consequences for EU citizens living and/or working in that country, including having to obtain official confirmation of their right to continue to live and work in that country.

To imagine this wouldn't be the case and to react with shock or surprise is ridiculous.

 

[kebabking]

...To imagine this wouldn't be the case and to react with shock or surprise is ridiculous.

Indeed. For me its 'and rain makes shit wet you say...?' stuff.

 

[andysays]

It's not just a false assumption it's actually nasty. It is accusing anyone that is worried about this of only being so because now it's affecting Europeans, like concern on this issue is evidence of racism and previously holding a position of apathy wrt the treatment of people from elsewhere. It's a shitty argument and at best dismissive.

The other aspects of this like 'well duh, what did you think was going to happen' , 'suck it up, already happens to people from elsewhere' is a race to a very shitty bottom imo.

Europeans aren't being prized over those people from outside the EU who already have a fucking shit time and treatment in terms of freedom of movement/immigration policy etc. Surely it's about maintaining certain standards and rights so that those can continue to be opened up to others, not obliterating them and having to start from rock bottom again for everyone?

I think most people concerned about this were previously also concerned about the treatment of people from other parts of the world too, people tend to be consistent in their awareness and position on issues like these IME.

BTW krtek a houby you are right, this thread is littered with 'both indirect and direct thicky' and 'racist' accusations.

"You can't do this to me, I was born here"

 

[Spymaster]

The other aspects of this like 'well duh, what did you think was going to happen' , 'suck it up, already happens to people from elsewhere' is a race to a very shitty bottom imo.

Well the "duh!" was in response to the posting of a link that basically told us that EU citizens living in the UK might have a few issues after the UK left the EU.

As far as this sudden concern from leavers over EU citizens in the UK having to apply for Settled Status goes, if you were that concerned about their prospective immigration travails why the fuck did you vote to leave in the first place?

 

[ska invita]

I voted Remain.

Is this a price worth paying for that vote of mine?

Heres one difference, this settled status law can yet be stopped in its tracks.

 

[ska invita]

And let's be honest ska invita you were and are deeply opposed to leaving the EU and the breaking of what you see as freedom of movement. In fact you see (what you call) freedom of movement as such an important issue that you are willing to accept free trade agreements as a price for it.

I like freedom of movement, but once brexit was voted for i had come to terms that it was going to stop in some form, and was okay with that as long as people living here were to maintain their rights. I was reassured by Mays words on this in theory - turns out in practice its a very different picture.

 

[ska invita]

You have a very patronising view of EU citizens resident here if you assume that that they are incapable of availing themselves of this right, particularly as they have to years to do do and everyone telling them that they need to do so.

There are plenty of good arguments against leaving, but this borderline racist tosh isn't one of them.

Errr, im going on government figures that expect between 10-20% of 3,8 million to either not apply or fail to apply. Migration NGOs are preparing for bigger figures based on historical precedent.

Dont personalise this - its not about me. Im not making it up to score points, Im responding to the governments own expectations on this.

I take it you havent read the thread linked to Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit
or this key link which sets out the problems
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/

the issues raised there are undenied by the government, as became clear at the Home Affairs Committee on the matter.

 

[ska invita]

Why is applying for settled status going to be a problem for so many people? It’s not like it’s going to come as a surprise or that it’ll be difficult to qualify for.

Here you go - answers all your questions
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/

Also , in addition to that, as set out in the other thread people with all the necessary documentation are already getting rejected and having to begin appeal processes etc. That kind of process - having the confidence, resources, language skills etc is a big barrier to many

 

[ska invita]

Nonsense. A handful of people will get caught out,

The government expects between 10-20% of 3.8 million not to get settled status

 

[Pickman's model]

The government expects between 10-20% of 3.8 million not to get settled status

Auld spy's got very big hands

 

[ska invita]

I forget who said it, cant find the post now, but someone said in this thread " The UK will have to play nice or other countries in the EU will do the same to UK citizens there"....well registration, getting some kind of equivalent settled status, is happening in those countries too, and people will be at risk of getting booted out in equivalence. I know someone whose doing the paperwork right now in Germany.

Theres one massive difference though, and thats the scale of registering 3.8million people in a less than 2 year window on an app and a home office "support" system thats already been cut back to the bone. The scale is unprecedented in human history, and the resources to make it work pitiful. Its almost as if they want the system to fail....surely not.

I've had my fair share of dealing with the Home Office, queuing up in that shit building in Croydon, waiting endlessly for replys, stuck in limbo in the interim, them ignoring everything you said to them with a standardised bullshit threatening letter, etc etc. That was some 15 years ago...by all accounts things are even shitter now.

 

[Supine]

Guardian has something on loss of rights for settled status people

Warning of legal limbo for 3m EU citizens living in UK after Brexit

 

[Gramsci]

Well what on earth did people think was going to happen? According to the OP the government (May) said that people who are living here would have their rights protected, so that was ok. So how did people expect those rights to be protected? Wave a wand <ding> 'your rights are protected'? No. They are protected by the issuance of a status that allows them to remain. It's going to be called Settled Status.

This was one of the reasons I was Remain at time of referendum. Did I trust that the rights of EU nationals from other EU countries rights to stay here and right to keep the same level of status they had post Brexit were safe with a Tory government arranging Brexit? No I didn't. I thought about it at the time and that was and still is my considered opinion.

I think I've been proved right.

 

[Mation]

Well duh! This is a function of Brexit. "Settled status" is the intended mechanism to combat the problem. If you are a remainer because of this then fair enough, but if you voted leave, didn't think this would happen and are now changing your mind because of it, as per Ska's OP, you're a moron.

How can anything other than "leave the EU" be a function of Brexit given that no one knows what Brexit will entail until people decide what it must entail, (which no one has)?

 

[Spymaster]

How can anything other than "leave the EU" be a function of Brexit given that no one knows what Brexit will entail until people decide what it must entail, (which no one has)?

Because "leave the EU" necessarily breaks ties with the bloc and the overseas living arrangements of citizens within it that were bestowed by it. It was always absolutely inevitable that at some point, significant disruption would occur in the affairs of EU citizens here and Brits overseas, should we choose to exit the arrangement.

 

[Mation]

Because "leave the EU" necessarily breaks ties with the bloc and the overseas living arrangements of citizens within it that were bestowed by it. It was always absolutely inevitable that at some point, significant disruption would occur in the affairs of EU citizens here and Brits overseas, should we choose to exit the arrangement.

It doesn't necessarily do a damn thing.

 

[Spymaster]

Of course it does.

 

[Mation]

Of course it does.

I look forward to your list.

If an EU member state votes to leave the EU, it is necessarily the case that:

 

[Spymaster]

I look forward to your list.

If an EU member state votes to leave the EU, it is necessarily the case that:

• Some form of disruption will be caused to the lives of EU citizens who have made the exiting country their home but not sought citizenship of; as well as to British citizens in similar circumstances in EU nations.

 

[Mation]

• Some form of disruption will be caused to the lives of EU citizens who have made the exiting country their home but not sought citizenship of; as well as to those British citizens overseas in similar circumstances.

You should review the meaning of the word 'necessarily'.

My non-facetious point is that none of this shit is inevitable (rather than that odious policies or effects of the process are an acceptable consequence). Brexit is not physics. It's people deciding what to do, with no precedent (I'm familiar with). This is a dumping ground with a great big patsy.

 

[Gramsci]

The victims of the Windrush scandal were treated illegally, they already had the status.

As to the hoops, the government website makes it clear what needs to be done and it's not so onerous. Pragmatically the need to protect the large number of British Citizens living in the EU makes it unlikely that they are going to turn nasty. There are and will be easier targets.

Its not as straightforward as that.

The Windrush people weren't treated illegally. It was that under Mays hostile environment the Windrush people had to give extra proof of their right to be here. As friend of mines Uncle found out. He was from Carribbean Island. Came here as part of Windrush generation. Few years back went back home. On way back stopped by immigration at Heathrow. They didn't accuse him of being illegal immigrant. Told him it's changed now and he had to prove right to be here. Cost him three grand in Legal fees.

Your mistake is the see this as issue of legality. What May did was to change the hoops one had to jump through.

Warning of legal limbo for 3m EU citizens living in UK after Brexit

This is why the human right parliamentary committee says the EU settled status scheme is not good enough. To avoid future problems , as seen with Windrush generation, This should happen:

The cross-party committee, whose members are drawn from the Commons and the Lords, argues that EU citizens’ rights should be protected by primary legislation rather than reliant on statutory instruments approved by ministers at a later date.

Immigration policy is not clear cut. Parliamentary oversight can be avoided by giving ministers right to decide instruments without parliamentary debate.

So there is direct correlation between Windrush generation and EU citizens future now.

And btw I think Mays hostile environment wasn't a mistake. She knew what she was doing.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Of course it does.

No, it doesn't. You're doing that not very bright thing again.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I was reassured by Mays words on this in theory

More fool you then.

 

[T & P]

Even the softest of Brexits will have permanent, significant negative consequences for countless amounts of ordinary people. In some cases it seems highly likely families or long-term couples might be forced to spend extended periods apart depending on their circumstances. What happens to unmarried couples whereby the non-native partner has lived in the country less than five years? Not to mention if they're unemployed.

And if we end up with a no-deal Brexit, something that, incredibly, many left-leaning and supposedly caring-for-their-fellow-man Brexit supporters are still perfectly happy with, the consequences will be far more severe and far reaching for many more people. That will very likely include long established British citizens abroad having their free healthcare access taken away, which will force many to have to return to the UK. Likely EU citizens here might in turn have their free healthcare access terminated.

That's not even counting the issue of removing forever the freedom of unlimited movement, work and residence across 27 European countries, for this and all future generations of British citizens. A right that countless citizens from every every country in the world outside of the EU can only dream of.

I get the Farages and rightwing bigots of this world not giving a fuck about the consequences of Brexit on ordinary people. But those of you who are not rightwing bigots and still support Brexit, in particular those who have no problem with a hard Brexit, should be aware that the lives of at least tens of thousands of ordinary, decent human beings in the UK and the Continent are going to be turned upside down. And in the case of a no-deal exit some here seem to be so cheerful and casual about, it will utterly ruin the lives and welfare of hundreds of thousands. Is it really worth it?

 

[Spymaster]

My non-facetious point is that none of this shit is inevitable

Then your non-facetious point is incorrect. There is no way that a nation could exit a union and it cause no issue for the citizens of other nations that live in it when their right to do so is bestowed by that union in the first place. That's almost physics!

 

[Mation]

Then your non-facetious point is incorrect. There is no way that a nation could have exited the union and it cause no issue for the citizens of other nations that live in it when the right to do so was bestowed by the union in the first place. That's almost physics!

So a nation that exits the union must revoke its policies towards citizens of other nations because of the vote to exit?

 

[Spymaster]

So a nation that exits the union must revoke its policies towards citizens of other nations because of the vote to exit?

Well it will have to change some of them. Certainly. How would they differentiate those citizens of other states who've lived here and are entitled to stay from those who haven't and aren't, for starters?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

• Some form of disruption will be caused to the lives of EU citizens who have made the exiting country their home but not sought citizenship of; as well as to British citizens in similar circumstances in EU nations.

Except that four countries exist outside the EU but within the free travel area - Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland. Indeed, they are all part of the Schengen area, which the UK is not part of. So leaving the EU doesn't necessarily mean that new border controls and travel/work restrictions are imposed on EU/EFTA people. It could even mean that border controls are reduced in some respects, by leaving the EU but joining the Schengen area, not that Schengen doesn't have its own problems re id cards and the like. Or more plausibly, it could mean a totally unchanged situation in which the free travel area is maintained as before, with reciprocal health arrangements etc - in the travel area but outside Schengen, just as the UK and Ireland currently are. Ironically enough, the main reason Ireland isn't in Schengen is that the UK isn't in it.

Immigration policy was not on the ballot paper, and models of Brexit along EFTA lines could easily be done with zero disruption for EU/EFTA people living here or UK people living in the EU/EFTA. UK was in EFTA pre-EU after all. It's not an outrageous suggestion.