A question for those who still support a Brexit

[krtek a houby]

You brought it up when you made the ridiculous claim above. So do you admit now that your claim was bollocks?

what claim, andy

 

[ManchesterBeth]

jesus christ you remainers caused this clusterfuck and funnelled all energies into the circus that is parliamentary left and constitutional politics but somehow you say nice things and are not absolved. Brexit was and will always be, a victory to remain. It was never about leaving the EU voluntarily.

It's not even the primary issue and never was the primary issue in politics. the old horse of trying to move corbbyn to the left by public school toffs. jog on.

 

[TopCat]

The only folk who throw around the word thicky and racist are the leavers. Your comments about those who read the Graun, etc.

There's nothing wrong with being concerned over those who will be in limbo or jeopardy, come Brexit. Be they transient, or long term residents. Or Irish, come to think of it.

This claim krtek

 

[krtek a houby]

This claim

Which claim, the thicky accusation or nothing wrong with being concerned about those in limbo, post-brexit?
If it's the former, then yes, the only people using that epithet now, are leavers.
I'm all for Brexit now, it will lead to a 32 county Republic. But I'm still concerned over those in GB who will suffer due to questions over their status.

 

[TopCat]

It's like debating with a sheep.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's like debating with a sheep.

Sheeple aside, you didn't say which claim, TC.

 

[butchersapron]

Which claim, the thicky accusation or nothing wrong with being concerned about those in limbo, post-brexit?
If it's the former, then yes, the only people using that epithet now, are leavers.

What a preposterous thing to say.

 

[butchersapron]

Which claim, the thicky accusation or nothing wrong with being concerned about those in limbo, post-brexit?
If it's the former, then yes, the only people using that epithet now, are leavers.
I'm all for Brexit now, it will lead to a 32 county Republic. But I'm still concerned over those in GB who will suffer due to questions over their status.

Did this sudden switch to leavers being the only people calling others racist take place when you joined their ranks?

 

[TopCat]

Sheeple aside, you didn't say which claim, TC.

Not sheeple. Sheep.

 

[krtek a houby]

Not sheeple. Sheep.

Ah, sheep, that's using the thicky epithet, more or less.

Still haven't said which claim, TC.

 

[andysays]

what claim, andy

The claim about leavers being the only ones to throw around the words thick and racist, that claim, which I quoted for you when I first questioned you on it.

So, that claim, correct or not, what do you think?

 

[tim]

That's similar to the argument made for means-tested benefits. They're entitled. They can apply - they just need to supply the evidence and they'll be fine. Ignoring the study after study after study showing clearly that creating hoops to jump through reduces uptake significantly.

Should the victims of the Windrush scandal have sorted themselves out? They had decades to do it.

The victims of the Windrush scandal were treated illegally, they already had the status.

As to the hoops, the government website makes it clear what needs to be done and it's not so onerous. Pragmatically the need to protect the large number of British Citizens living in the EU makes it unlikely that they are going to turn nasty. There are and will be easier targets.

 

[planetgeli]

No, its not a good thread, it's a transparent 'call out' thread that paints those who, for whatever reason, support leaving the EU as being either so thick that they didn't see citizens rights as being a potentially problematic area, or just racist.

That was it - are you thick, or racist.

It also seeks to take a massively complex, pretty much all encompassing relationship between the EU and the UK down to a single issue. Which is vacuous stuff.

As a thread, it's right up there with 'space marines Vs The Empire - who would win?'.

All fair comment. And far more to the point than aircraft carriers.

 

[Serge Forward]

While you're bickering, I'd just like to say, whether Brexit or Remain: wankers all

 

[Gramsci]

A thread with a poll.

Government officials have put the number of EU citizens living in the UK who will fail to register for settled status as between 10-20%. This could well be an underestimation, but lets say its correct, thats somewhere between 380,000-760,000 people who will become illegal overnight [at present judgement day is June 2021].

As discussed in this thread these people will be unable to rent, work, access the NHS, have a bank account, in short live in the UK. They will be deportable if they dont leave of their own accord.

My question for this thread is: Is this a price worth paying so that Brexit passes? Are you still happy to have a Brexit with this as a conditionality?

My own position is that once Leave won and May said EU citizen rights were protected, I was relatively ambivalent to Brexit happening. But on discovering last xmas that so many people will become illegal, and those that have settled status will have a second class citizenship (again discussed in that linked thread), for me any Brexit that includes the Settled Status process must be stopped.
I dont think this was at all clear before the referendum.

POLL options:
I still want Brexit to happen and the Settled Status process is a price worth paying
I still want Brexit, but only one that doesn't include a Settled Status process (some kind of Freedom of Movement deal)
I supported Brexit but can no longer

Brexit was pushed by UKIP and the right of the Tory party. I work with migrants from EU and outside EU.

I opposed Brexit on basis that that it was being pushed by the anti immigration right.

My East European friends/ workmates/ felt the Brexit vote meant they did not feel welcome here after the referendum result. They were very upset. Worked hard here, contributed and felt referendum result was a slap in the face.

I also have Spanish partner who finds this so called settled status a worry. And opposes Brexit. None of the people working hard in this country for years from other EU countries had a say in the referendum.

On that basis I never wanted Brexit.

Last Saturday was working in central London. So missed the march but saw people arriving. Working with two Brazilians and my friend from the Irish Republic. Got chatting on Brexit all opposed it. Including the Brazilians who see it as anti immigrant.

But then I work and live in inner London Borough , Lambeth, which was big majority to remain. And these people aren't all middle class Guardian readers.

I'm totally pissed off with this Brexit bollocks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The victims of the Windrush scandal were treated illegally, they already had the status..

What does the legality of what happened matter? Point is that you create conditions in which this kind of thing can happen. You think an illegal treatment of EU residents isn't possible in the future?

 

[krtek a houby]

The claim about leavers being the only ones to throw around the words thick and racist, that claim, which I quoted for you when I first questioned you on it.

So, that claim, correct or not, what do you think?

I refer you to posts #28 and #94.

I'd say there's been a lot of "thicky" posts or posts inferring that remainers aren't the cleverest bunch. Comments about sheep and Guardian readers, etc. I haven't seen anyone here recently call leavers thick. But, am happy to be proven wrong.

Again, I reacted emotively and emotionally at the time of the result and was rightly called out for it. I acknowledged that and eventually came round to being in favor of Brexit, for a number of reasons - a united Ireland being a major factor. But I am wary of what could happen to friends and non-nationals, not just in terms of the Home Office but how they're treated in general.

I hope everything works out for those who support Brexit.

 

[tim]

What does the legality of what happened matter? Point is that you create conditions in which this kind of thing can happen. You think an illegal treatment of EU residents isn't possible in the future?

It would be much harder as the documentation giving proof of status is much more easily available than the documentation for for anyone who settled here in the 30 or more years ago. Contemporary records are on accesible databases this is not necessarily true for older records

 

[tim]

I'm all for Brexit now, it will lead to a 32 county Republic. But I'm still concerned over those in GB who will suffer due to questions over their status.

This seems unlikely, in the short or medium term.

 

[krtek a houby]

This seems unlikely, in the short or medium term.

If you mean a return of the occupied 6 counties? Well, I used to believe that. I thought it was pointless, wishful thinking. But if there's one thing I've learnt in the last few years - politics and shifts of opinion are seismic, of late and cannot be predicted.

If you mean people in the UK of unclear status, I think that's already happening.

 

[DownwardDog]

Those who support brexit, or who might prefer other words to describe their feelings, might be more interested in engaging with the downsides of brexit if remainers were as candid about the EU...

In the last week France and Germany have been publicly talking about building and operating an EU flagged, paid for and commanded Aircraft Carrier.

Yes, an aircraft carrier, with fighters and all the business.

That does sound like an excellent idea.

 

[Spymaster]

What does the legality of what happened matter? Point is that you create conditions in which this kind of thing can happen. You think an illegal treatment of EU residents isn't possible in the future?

I certainly don't think it's likely. By using your mechanism "IF the government act illegally THEN ..." you can argue pretty much anything but it doesn't make it a likely outcome or even a probable one. Whatever happens, EU citizens living here are going to need to do something. To my knowledge nobody in the world currently lives legally in a country that they don't hold citizenship of without being granted the right to do so by that state's government or international treaty. When we leave the EU that right will need to be granted to those living here by some new vehicle or other, otherwise they'd all default to illegal status. In the absence of their wish or ability to become UK citizens the most simple way of doing this is to grant them a new status, which in this case, is "settled". This HAS to happen.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Warning of legal limbo for 3m EU citizens living in UK after Brexit

Nothing to worry about at all. Stop making a fuss about nothing much.

 

[Pickman's model]

I certainly don't think it's likely. By using your mechanism "IF the government act illegally THEN ..." you can argue pretty much anything but it doesn't make it a likely outcome or even a probable one. Whatever happens, EU citizens living here are going to need to do something. To my knowledge nobody in the world currently lives legally in a country that they don't hold citizenship of without being granted the right to do so by that state's government or international treaty. When we leave the EU that right will need to be granted to those living here by some new vehicle or other, otherwise they'd all default to illegal status. In the absence of their wish or ability to become UK citizens the most simple way of doing this is to grant them a new status, which in this case, is "settled". This HAS to happen.

i like your optimism

 

[Spymaster]

Warning of legal limbo for 3m EU citizens living in UK after Brexit

Nothing to worry about at all. Stop making a fuss about nothing much.

Well duh! This is a function of Brexit. "Settled status" is the intended mechanism to combat the problem. If you are a remainer because of this then fair enough, but if you voted leave, didn't think this would happen and are now changing your mind because of it, as per Ska's OP, you're a moron.

 

[andysays]

Well duh! This is a function of Brexit. "Settled status" is the intended mechanism to combat the problem. If you are a remainer because of this then fair enough, but if you voted leave, didn't think this would happen and are now changing your mind because of it, as per Ska's OP, you're a moron.

TBH, I find it hard to believe that anyone didn't realise this was a likely consequence of Brexit, however they originally voted, and ska invita's claim in his OP strikes me as suspect for that reason.

 

[Spymaster]

TBH, I find it hard to believe that anyone didn't realise this was a likely consequence of Brexit, however they originally voted, and ska invita's claim in his OP strikes me as suspect for that reason.

Well what on earth did people think was going to happen? According to the OP the government (May) said that people who are living here would have their rights protected, so that was ok. So how did people expect those rights to be protected? Wave a wand <ding> 'your rights are protected'? No. They are protected by the issuance of a status that allows them to remain. It's going to be called Settled Status.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well what on earth did people think was going to happen? According to the OP the government (May) said that people who are living here would have their rights protected, so that was ok. So how did people expect those rights to be protected? Wave a wand <ding> 'your rights are protected'? No. They are protected by the issuance of a status that allows them to remain. It's going to be called Settled Status.

Not been paying much attention to this thread, as the title didn’t speak to me, but on glancing through there seems to be a rather bizarre argument going on between what seems to be two polar positions. But I think the truth lies somewhere between them.

There is a great deal of truth in what Spy has posted in that which I have quoted. It is also true that governments deciding who lives where and why will use tools that turn out to be blunt, wielded by people who don’t know how to use them, or who think the task is something different. There will be bureaucratic fuck ups (there always are). There will be mission creep (there always is). There will be people who are fucked around (there always are).

Leave or Remain, this is the case. What changes are the particulars.

 

[andysays]

Not been paying much attention to this thread, as the title didn’t speak to me, but on glancing through there seems to be a rather bizarre argument going on between what seems to be two polar positions. But I think the truth lies somewhere between them.

There is a great deal of truth in what Spy has posted in that which I have quoted. It is also true that governments deciding who lives where and why will use tools that turn out to be blunt, wielded by people who don’t know how to use them, or who think the task is something different. There will be bureaucratic fuck ups (there always are). There will be mission creep (there always is). There will be people who are fucked around (there always are).

Leave or Remain, this is the case. What changes are the particulars.

And there appears to be a belief or assumption (unstated and possibly unrecognised) among some that this shouldn't be happening in this particular case because these people are EU citizens, for goodness sake, and so should be immune to this sort of thing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And there appears to be a belief or assumption (unstated and possibly unrecognised) among some that this shouldn't be happening in this particular case because these people are EU citizens, for goodness sake, and so should be immune to this sort of thing

Or you're making false assumptions. Not wanting bad things to happen to people who don't deserve to have bad things happen to them, who have been here in many cases for decades, and who came here under a very different belief about what coming here meant. What more motivation do you need to express opposition and see it as good reason in and of itself to oppose this brexit process?