5 Cyclists dead in 1 week in London

[Lo Siento.]

that's not my second post. counting's not your strong suit, is it.

Oh ffs. What the fuck does it matter if it's your second or third post? Your second post basically says the same thing anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh ffs. What the fuck does it matter if it's your second or third post? Your second post basically says the same thing anyway.

no, my second post is having a pop at crispy for a vacuous post. doesn't say anything about cyclists in at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

let's just cut to the chase: you think i'm a cunt. but you still have a higher opinion of me than i do of you.

 

[Lo Siento.]

let's just cut to the chase: you think i'm a cunt. but you still have a higher opinion of me than i do of you.

Unsurprising. Apparently you have a pathological hatred of all cyclists.

i've said it before and i suppose i'll say it again but the number of accidents could be lowered by, among other measures, a mite more cyclist training

a quick read of the highway code might be a good starting point for cyclists.

seems to me that many cyclists place issues of speed above other road users (ducking onto pavements, going down one way streets the wrong way, cycling along roads they're prohibited from using, going through red lights) and in so doing undermine their own safety. cyclists imo frequently privilege their own use of the roads (and all too often pavements) above other road users

i see MANY cyclists doing the things i mention every day. perhaps not MOST, but certainly a reasonable proportion. and if i'm seeing dozens of cyclists doing this on my journey into work you can be assured there are a lot of other cyclists elsewhere in london who are doing exactly the same. the cyclists who jump on the south pavement at the junction you mention would easily number a hundred in an hour when i see at least four or five doing it during one traffic light cycle. that is MANY.

if people are going to cycle in an anti-social manner which takes no concern of the interests or safety of others, then it is likely they will be less safe themselves. this need not end in death to end in tears - ending up studying the undercarriage of a bus and being taken to hospital is more likely than ending up with your innards on an hgv's outer tube.

you're highlighting cycling on pavements. i was thinking of cyclists going the wrong way down one-way streets, cycling down roads where they're prohibited, or going through red lights. these sorts of risk-taking behaviours are unlikely to be found in careful cyclists as they expose the cyclist to additional risk.

 

[Pickman's model]

Unsurprising. Apparently you have a pathological hatred of all cyclists.

yes. you've said it before but it doesn't become any truer on repetition. if you highlight anything it's that i don't like anti-social cycling. you seem intent on defending such behaviour. i wonder why.

 

[fredfelt]

Oh ffs. What the fuck does it matter if it's your second or third post? Your second post basically says the same thing anyway.

Ah, you have stumbled into the area of 'meta-conversation' - a conversation about a conversation. I experienced one of these with Pickman's model a few days ago. I decided that, as a general rule, as soon as the conversation moves away from what you think, to what someone said in a particular post, it's time to leave it.

 

[Crispy]

Lo SIento, you realise this war can never be won?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, you have stumbled into the area of 'meta-conversation' - a conversation about a conversation. I experienced one of these with Pickman's model a few days ago. I decided that, as a general rule, as soon as the conversation moves away from what you think, to what someone said in a particular post, it's time to leave it.

not a bad rule

 

[Pickman's model]

Lo SIento, you realise this war can never be won?

he has to learn this lesson himself.

 

[laptop]

My attention wandered. Had to do some work. Is it now officially the case that any person who doesn't acknowledge that all cyclists are wonderfully angelic has a pathological hatred of all?

Is anyone doing any research on how this came to be the case?

 

[Pickman's model]

My attention wandered. Had to do some work. Is it now officially the case that any person who doesn't acknowledge that all cyclists are wonderfully angelic has a pathological hatred of all?

Is anyone doing any research on how this came to be the case?

because Lo Siento. is the arbiter of cycle-love here.

 

[laptop]

because Lo Siento. is the arbiter of cycle-love here.

Ah. Psychological research, rather than moral philosophy or criminology, then.

Or is there something physical about bicycles that has a somatic effect on susceptible individuals?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah. Psychological research, rather than moral philosophy or criminology, then.

Or is there something physical about bicycles that has a somatic effect on susceptible individuals?

cycling has a deleterious effect on the intellect of those whose cerebellums reside in their posteriors

 

[laptop]

cycling has a deleterious effect on the intellect of those whose cerebellums reside in their posteriors

Poetic.

Justice?

 

[Pickman's model]

Poetic.

Justice?

perhaps

 

[fredfelt]

My attention wandered. Had to do some work. Is it now officially the case that any person who doesn't acknowledge that all cyclists are wonderfully angelic has a pathological hatred of all?

Is anyone doing any research on how this came to be the case?

Well, no. I don't think than anyone is claiming that anyone is angelic.

Personally I'm angry that five people, not cyclist, drivers, or what ever, five people have been killed in London in a week. I'm angry that Boris Johnson thinks this to be acceptable. Even if the people killed are at fault that does not make it okay.

Many of these people who have been killed have been using infrastructure designed specifically for cyclists - and that infrastructure is clearly not fit for purpose.

It's fuck all to do with cyclists being angelic. It's beyond any phony war between cyclists and drivers. It's about people getting killed and what to do about it.

If you blame the person getting killed then nothing can, nor will be done about it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you blame the person getting killed then nothing can, nor will be done about it.

Yep. Johnson is being a total cunt about it. In many accidents, both parties have made mistakes - the cyclist has done something a bit unwise or risky, the driver hasn't seen the cyclist when they really should have: a fatal combination of mistakes made in a built environment that makes such mistakes possible.

This is no comment on the recent cases, but a general comment on how accidents tend to happen. And for Johnson to wash his hands of any responsibility for the bit he can change - the quality of the built environment - is disgraceful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As for this thread, pickman's, you have had a very general moan about a bunch of things that annoy you about the behaviour of a certain minority of cyclists, but you have made no link between those behaviours and cyclist accidents. That's a lack of analysis worthy of Boris Johnson himself, and your gripes appear to be utterly beside the point wrt to at least the last two deaths this week, and possibly all five.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've just had a quick look for comparisons between Holland and the UK. Roughly the same number of cyclist deaths - around 150-200 mark per year - but many many times more cyclist miles are put in in Holland than the UK, approximately 10 times more. And very few people in Holland wear helmets - that isn't the reason for fewer deaths. And here is a difference - more than half of the people in Holland who die cycling are over 65, many of them just fall off, they are not crashed into.

more than half of all cycle deaths last year were people over the age of 65, an incredible figure! In 2012, 200 people cycling were killed in the Netherlands, but of those 200 no less than 108 were over the age of 65! It becomes even more mind-boggling when you consider that 60% of all bicycle crashes with serious injuries were single vehicle crashes. No motor vehicle, no other cyclists, not even a pedestrian was involved. Dutch elderly seem to just fall off their bicycles and they often sustain severe injuries or they even die.

From here.

The quality of the built environment is overwhelmingly the key factor determining the frequency and nature of cycling accidents. Not naughty cyclists, not reckless helmet-avoiders.

 

[laptop]

Well, no. I don't think than anyone is claiming that anyone is angelic.

Can someone translate my post into Basic English for this person?

Ta.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

We need proper space for cycling in London.

In practice this means segregated cycle lanes on busy/main roads and significant changes at junctions which separate cyclists and motorised traffic in space and time. We also need the quiet/backstreet routes promoting and improved; but cyclists are being killed by large vehicles at junctions on busy roads, so this must be the immediate focus. We need to reduce conflict.

Cycling is not just about enabling people to get to work quickly in London and reducing the strain on the roads and public transport, it's also about getting around your community and making London a liveable city. We need facilities that your 8 year old kids and your granny could use safely and confidently.

The reason proper infrastructure isn't happening is Boris Johnson and Transport for London are unwilling to consider anything which reduces 'traffic flow' or space for motorised vehicles. In the eyes of the politicians and TfL, the motor vehicle is king. And therein lies the problem.

Imagine what mass cycling and walking could do for our city. We could revolutionise London (and other towns and cities across the UK) by prioritising pedestrians and cyclists. But the political will isn't there yet.

However, I think the battle is being won...

 

[DotCommunist]

5 innocent people dead needlessly & you focus on the validity of the group hosting the online petition. Good grief.

what were they innocent of?

 

[Brixton Hatter]

This is the sort of thing the cycle 'superhighways' do: put people on bikes in direct conflict with heavy traffic - in this case, by encouraging cyclists across an exit where drivers are turning left. (It's at Oval, the corner of Kennington Park Road and Brixton Road.) This lady only just saves herself from getting squished under the wheels of a large van:



The fact this was captured on film has meant the driver has been traced and punished. Reducing these conflicts will help all road users. This sort of stuff happens every day on the roads in London.

 

[co-op]

The quality of the built environment is overwhelmingly the key factor determining the frequency and nature of cycling accidents. Not naughty cyclists, not reckless helmet-avoiders.

Of course it is, Pickman's Model is talking utter bollocks on this thread, as he always does, he always crops up to troll cycle safety threads - pretty shitty taste when so many have just been killed.

And I'm loving his pettifogging legalism that because the police haven't charged any car drivers with anything, that's all ok when it's obviously part of the problem. I'm sure that's just what he says when the police kill someone. Actually it probably will be, give him enough years.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course it is, Pickman's Model is talking utter bollocks on this thread, as he always does, he always crops up to troll cycle safety threads - pretty shitty taste when so many have just been killed.

And I'm loving his pettifogging legalism that because the police haven't charged any car drivers with anything, that's all ok when it's obviously part of the problem. I'm sure that's just what he says when the police kill someone. Actually it probably will be, give him enough years.

i was under the impression that no car drivers were involved, that the vehicles had been hgvs, coaches etc. this may explain why you find no mention of car drivers. given even the most ardent apologist for cycling admits that in 1/3 of accidents involving cyclists the cyclists are at fault, it might be imagined that at least one of the unfortunate cyclists may have been to blame. however, no one yet knows all the ins and outs of all five accidents and rather than apportion blame what i in fact said was that i await the outcome of the inquests with interest. so, no i did not say that because the police haven't charged it's all ok.

 

[Pickman's model]

As for this thread, pickman's, you have had a very general moan about a bunch of things that annoy you about the behaviour of a certain minority of cyclists, but you have made no link between those behaviours and cyclist accidents. That's a lack of analysis worthy of Boris Johnson himself, and your gripes appear to be utterly beside the point wrt to at least the last two deaths this week, and possibly all five.

i think you'll find i did, when i said above that cyclists who run red lights etc are likely themselves to be less safe. but hey, let's not let what i said get in the way of a good dig.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i think you'll find i did, when i said above that cyclists who run red lights etc are likely themselves to be less safe. but hey, let's not let what i said get in the way of a good dig.

you asserted that there was a link. You did not demonstrate one. You're as bad as boris johnson.

 

[co-op]

This is the sort of thing the cycle 'superhighways' do: put people on bikes in direct conflict with heavy traffic - in this case, by encouraging cyclists across an exit where drivers are turning left. (It's at Oval, the corner of Kennington Park Road and Brixton Road.) This lady only just saves herself from getting squished under the wheels of a large van:



The fact this was captured on film has meant the driver has been traced and punished. Reducing these conflicts will help all road users. This sort of stuff happens every day on the roads in London.

I remember that clip. But I have to say although the lorry driver was imo obviously driving like a cunt (ie normally for London), the junction's design makes conflict inevitable. The only way to take that junction safely is to get right out into the lane and not let anyone overtake, but then you are at risk of getting some nasty piece of work getting on your back wheel and blatting their horn at you for fun.

 

[co-op]

you asserted that there was a link. You did not demonstrate one. You're as bad as boris johnson.

He's talking crap as usual. Red-light jumping by motors is nearly always amber-gambling - dangerous and illegal but not that dangerous imo although it seems to me the degree of it is getting pretty gross ie more dangerous. But cyclists are often much safer if they jump lights - gyratories are the obvious example since it allows them to lane cross without being overtaken by accelerating cars. Anyone who used to cycle the Vauxhall gyratory before the cycle lanes were put on the pavement (I did it all the time) will know it was far far safer to get through traffic lights (regardless of colour) to traffic islands than to wait for 3 lanes of accelerating, merging and de-merging cars to be fighting through the same space. Sometimes it wasn't possible due to cars that had the green light making it too dangerous, but if it was possible it was absolutely crystal clear that it was safer.

Back in 2007 it was reported pretty widely that TfL suppressed a report that they believed showed that red-light jumping made cyclists safer.

 

[Pickman's model]

you asserted that there was a link. You did not demonstrate one. You're as bad as boris johnson.

you're worse than bj