Zeitgeist: Moving Forward. communism/anarchism?

[TremulousTetra]

Many, but not all, socialists and anarchists have quite understandably shied away from describing what’s communism/anarchism would be like. While I have understood the arguments, I’m have not always been comfortable with this stance.

Zeitgeist: Moving Forward, puts forward a notion of society run on the basis of scientific principles. One of the main scientific principles being, that many of the things we hold to be true today, could be wrong tomorrow. Science, embraces being wrong, and changing one’s mind. And as such, in my opinion, negates many of the arguments against describing what communism/anarchism MAY be like. Communism/anarchism, would be a society run on scientific principles, wouldn’t it?

This description of society, where the sole purpose of production is human need, where we abolish money, where we only need about 3% of human beings to work, a truly egalitarian society, is a view that everyone on the left from reformist socialist to anarchist, can subscribe to isn’t? (I’m guessing anarchist would be fearful of a “scientific managing class”?)

I think the vast majority of people are quite comfortable with the left’s criticisms of capitalism, but they also want some kind of idea of what the alternative is.


disclaimer. Quite understandably the people who have produced this don't consider themselves socialist anarchists, or any other sort of political. Seeing the political's as part of the problem. But that doesn't mean political's cant agree with what's being said.

 

[butchersapron]

Ha! Ha! Nice one, almost fooled me.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Ha! Ha! Nice one, almost fooled me.

 

[N_igma]

The Zeitgeist movement is really popular on Urban. Really it is...

 

[TremulousTetra]

The Zeitgeist movement is really popular on Urban. Really it is...

don't really know much about it. Just watched the movie, and need to rewatch it to be honest.is there already threads attacking Zeitgeist Movement? Interested.



I really did like the first 40 minutes or so, the discussion of the false dichotomy between nature versus nurture. Have discussed this many times with a scientist friend, who concentrates on attacking the determinism in genetic science. However, I'd always felt there must be some role for genetics. I like the way they presented as moreover dialectical relationship.

 

[Athos]

You've plumbed new depths here. The Zeitgeist Movement/Project Venus is little more than a cult of conspiracy theorists, and crackpot technocracy fans.

 

[butchersapron]

With a heavy dose of anti-semitism.

 

[camouflage]

With a heavy dose of anti-semitism.

Is that reffering to their bankster-hatred or do you think the bankster stuff is just code?

 

[TremulousTetra]

You've plumbed new depths here. The Zeitgeist Movement/Project Venus is little more than a cult of conspiracy theorists, and crackpot technocracy fans.

oh well, and another one bites the dust.

Would explain why it seems to be more popular than anarchism/socialism..

 

[TremulousTetra]

and crackpot technocracy fans.

do want to flesh out those views. I suspected that would be your position, however with the removal of money etc, does that not remove the structural foundations of classism?

Any serious criticisms of this would be interesting.

 

[Athos]

do want to flesh out those views. I suspected that would be your position, however with the removal of money etc, does that not remove the structural foundations of classism?

Any serious criticisms of this would be interesting.

I'm sorry, but I really can't be bothered.

 

[butchersapron]

Is that reffering to their bankster-hatred or do you think the bankster stuff is just code?

Are you asking me if i think their use of bankster-stuff is anti-semitic or if their use of bankster-hatred is anti-semitic?

Seriously just google zeitgeist anti-semitic for loads of stuff over the years. I mean LaRouche ffs.

 

[camouflage]

oh well, and another one bites the dust.

Would explain why it seems to be more popular than anarchism/socialism..

They calmly and with a straight face explain how the way forward would be based along technocratic lines, scientists and engineers designing the cities of tomorrow, with politics banished. But politics is part of human society, for instance just because you don't like prostitutes it doesn't mean you can banish sexuality. Besides where does the discussion take place as to what is needed next? Apparently the technocrats just know, their algorithms tell them and they get on with it. No need for political discussions about how to spend the limited resources. Maybe they use some sort of economic-human model to figure it all out. Good sign that.

 

[TremulousTetra]

They calmly and with a straight face explain how the way forward would be based along technocratic lines, scientists and engineers designing the cities of tomorrow, with politics banished. But politics is part of human society, for instance just because you don't like prostitutes it doesn't mean you can banish sexuality. Besides where does the discussion take place as to what is needed next? Apparently the technocrats just know, their algorithms tell them and they get on with it. No need for political discussions about how to spend the limited resources. Maybe they use some sport of economic-human model to figure it all out. Good sign that.

fair play.

 

[butchersapron]

It literally says that in the video that you're recommending and suggesting that socialists and anarchists agree with.

 

[camouflage]

do want to flesh out those views. I suspected that would be your position, however with the removal of money etc, does that not remove the structural foundations of classism?

Any serious criticisms of this would be interesting.

Historically there were classes and casts before money. Duty, power, tradition, obligation... money's just the latest guise imo.

 

[Athos]

fair play.

With no disrespect to Camouflage, that much is obvious, just on the face of it. How did you miss that when you seemed to be trumpeting this nonsense?

 

[TremulousTetra]

I'm sorry, but I really can't be bothered.

fair enough.

Seems to be a pretty decent discussion about them here http://libcom.org/forums/news/who-fuck-are-zeitgeist-movement-14052009?page=1

 

[camouflage]

With no disrespect to Camouflage

None taken... it's astounding how they are able to start saying all this without getting an attack of the giggles before reaching word five.

 

[ddraig]

the few in Cardiff do my fucking head in
have binned their shite every time i come across it

 

[xes]

Venus project is a nice utopian idea, but it'd never work. People are too greedy.

 

[camouflage]

Venus project is a nice utopian idea, but it'd never work. People are too greedy.

being human, the original sin. not the first time some ideology has had to cluck at us for not being up to scratch. it's probably all womans fault. or apples.

 

[TremulousTetra]

With no disrespect to Camouflage, that much is obvious, just on the face of it. How did you miss that when you seemed to be trumpeting this nonsense?

http://socialistunity.com/zeitgeist-exposed/

Over the last year or so a number of people have told me that I should watch the film Zeitgeist: The Movie. All of these people have been lefties or liberals, and each tells me that the film supplies a good exposé of power in the modern world. These people have been from a wide range of backgrounds and ages, some of them environmentalists, some of them unionists, some of them socialists, some British, some American. The film has achieved massive viewing figures globally, with over 3,000,000 people having watched it on Youtube, and many more on DVD or Google Video. And of all of these people who have recommended the film to me, none has noticed its reliance on the old myth of the “world Jewish conspiracy”

"SEEMED to be trumpeting!"One thing you can rely upon on urban, is that people will attack things.

As a socialist, I don't seem to have the same mentality as you, the kind of "original sin" notion of leadership. That in any HUMAN leadership, there has to be an inevitable gravitation towards "sustaining their self-interest". Particularly when the leadership identify as the problem with class society any form of elitism, and scientists self-interest, is our self-interest, Satisfying human need.

I am to a degree, with the utopian socialists. Communism/anarchism is in the interest of the ruling class, Because communism/anarchism would just be such a better place to live, for everybody. however, I would need to back up this belief, faith in human beings, societal structures that could negate the possibility of ANY elitism. is that really impossible?

 

[TremulousTetra]

making fun of my own naivete

 

[TremulousTetra]

Historically there were classes and casts before money. Duty, power, tradition, obligation... money's just the latest guise imo.

but they were based upon superstition, rather than rational scientific analysis. basing one's actions upon observing what works at satisfying human need, and what doesn't, is a different ball game altogether.

One of the key things I picked up on was their argument that those societies that were less equal, produced the most scourges of society. Equality, being a determinate of the health of society. IF equality is the prime's a prime concern of a technocracy, doesn't this negate classism?

 

[TruXta]

 

[TremulousTetra]

all rather moot anyway, as it seems highly likely we have already passed the tipping point. :-(

 

[TremulousTetra]

and what's getting lost is, one of my prime concerns is, these people are able to raise 30 million views on YouTube. Right or wrong, there is something a About their message, that appeals to people. I believe, rightly or wrongly, one of the reasons it is appeals is that they outline what they stand for, not just what they stand against. This is what I have not felt comfortable with about with socialists and anarchists. we need to inspire people, not just attack Capitalism.

 

[Stigmata]

Is this the film that gets every religion ever conceived wrong in order to claim that they all fit together?

 

[butchersapron]

Is this the film that gets every religion ever conceived wrong in order to claim that they all fit together?

That was the first part of one of their earlier efforts.