SheilaNaGig
Break requested
do link to something about this attempt, because all i can find are the 1993 and 2001 attacks.
I assumed freakydave was referring to those two attacks.
But yeah, links would be helpful.
do link to something about this attempt, because all i can find are the 1993 and 2001 attacks.
Then there was the cargo plane that crashed in a residential suburb near one of the NY airports a couple of weeks later. The young lad in my house was shaking his head at that one, saying "if this turns out to be Islamist related, the Muslims in America are going to be massacred".
what confuses me is that neither were carried out by white nationalists
I watched a documentary a few years on the WTC collapse, and the man's family were distraught at the thought of him effectively committing suicide as they are devout Catholics iirc.
what confuses me is that neither were carried out by white nationalists
Wasn't a cargo flight, was a passenger one, crashed in Queens killing 260 people on board and 5 on the ground. November 2001.
It's quite interesting this one. It's almost been forgotten about due to the timing and it not being terror. But like 265 dead people from a plane crash would've been HUGE news at any other time.
Okay yes. And this illustrates why it's necessary to clarify posts. With links if necessary. Or at least go back and check what we remember before posting.
Mea culpa
So to clarify my first response to freakydave :
Even if it wasn't white power terrorists, the way I remember it, all the various bomb incidents, including the one in Oklahoma, and the one that was thwarted, were part of the ongoing discussion.
do link to something about this attempt, because all i can find are the 1993 and 2001 attacks.
seems so. oklahoma city a great distance from the eastern seaboard of new england tho.Oklahoma bomber perhaps?
That's why it was pretty clear from the start that it wasn't "American crazies" to use my friend's line - it happened in New York fucking city baby, greatest fucking city in the world.seems so. oklahoma city a great distance from the eastern seaboard of new england tho.
the only city the sex pistols wrote a song aboutThat's why it was pretty clear from the start that it wasn't "American crazies" to use my friend's line - it happened in New York fucking city baby, greatest fucking city in the world.
oh yeh in terms of planning and training they did really well, you have to recognise that. bloody massacres don't just make themselves you knowFrom the terrorists point of view it was a success, a complex operation, three of the 4 planes made it to their targets. It depended on their having perpetrators who could learn how to fly the aircraft and were prepared to die themselves in the attack. You have to give them credit for an audacious plan against which the west at the time had little defence.
However, while they won that attack, ultimately they lost the war that followed so perhaps not so clever.
However, while they won that attack, ultimately they lost the war that followed so perhaps not so clever.
this would be the war the us won according to weltweit.The war is still ongoing, that's exactly what they wanted.
oh yeh in terms of planning and training they did really well, you have to recognise that. bloody massacres don't just make themselves you know
yeh but insurgents win by existing while states win by eradicating the insurgents or coming to terms with them. as for safe havens i don't doubt that parts of afghanistan will be friendly territory to some jihadi groups - as will parts of pakistan and other countries. isis still have large sums of money available to them and despite their vaunted defeat they're not yet done for. and by forcing the us and other western powers to spend huge sums of money i don't think you'll see another intervention like those in iraq and afghanistan for many, many years to come. the west has been weakened by these unforced errors and 19 years on the state of afghanistan doesn't see the western objectives laid out in the autumn of 2001 yet achieved.I think it's simplistic to say they've won because 'the war' is ongoing - they have lost things they considered to be invaluable (safe havens, sympathetic/blind-eye states, funding, any kind of long standing, senior leadership) and have been pushed out of a number of temporal territories with astonishing losses of fighters and commanders.
They now spend far more time managing/attempting to manage their own security than they do prosecuting their wars. That is very different to how they were operating in the summer of 2001.
We haven't won - we're still conducting counter IS/others ops in Iraq and Syria, we've been supporting the French op in Mali for years with airlift, helicopters, and UAV's, we're sending a very crunchy battlegroup to the UN operation in Mali because of IS's success in the Sahel - but they've not won either: safe havens are hard to find, they are beset with enemies, the fear and effect of penetration agents has had, and continues to have, a toxic and paralysing impact on morale and effectiveness, and any leaders that appear have a terrifyingly short life expectancy which causes huge organisational and political churn, paralysis and infighting.
i was at dsei and then i went and got very very drunk