ffsear
Well-Known Member
That is fucking awesome!!
World War II
- Thread starter Hollis
- Start date
That is fucking awesome!!
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Was recently reading accounts of D-Day from the German POV, taken from interviews with former German soldiers. What was striking in several cases was them saying the same thing; that the sea was absolutely covered in ships of all types as far as the eye could see, an awe-inspiring image. To an extent, I had some sympathy with these poor bastards, who in the main weren't crack Wehrmacht or SS units, partly because many of those were tied up in the East, trying to stem the Red Army's advance. And partly because of the success of Allied intelligence disinformation had led the Nazis to believe the invasion would take place elsewhere.
The other startling thing to me was that several of these former soldiers saw themselves as defenders of a united Europe, with the Allies as the aggressors! This was said to be partly due to the international composition of the Nazi forces - Dutch, Finns, Romanians, White Russians, Danes etc. Also a testament to the effectiveness of Nazi propaganda, although they had invaded and conquered France, they could still believe they were the defenders.
Related to this was - again, in more than one account - was the memory of seeing what were described as expressions of fury and hatred on the faces of British or Canadian etc soldiers as they attacked and captured machine-gun nests. It was almost laughable reading a former German soldier expressing puzzlement as to why these British troops were so angry...
The other startling thing to me was that several of these former soldiers saw themselves as defenders of a united Europe, with the Allies as the aggressors! This was said to be partly due to the international composition of the Nazi forces - Dutch, Finns, Romanians, White Russians, Danes etc. Also a testament to the effectiveness of Nazi propaganda, although they had invaded and conquered France, they could still believe they were the defenders.
Related to this was - again, in more than one account - was the memory of seeing what were described as expressions of fury and hatred on the faces of British or Canadian etc soldiers as they attacked and captured machine-gun nests. It was almost laughable reading a former German soldier expressing puzzlement as to why these British troops were so angry...
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Is that the Eckhertz book? I bought that a few years back but unfortunately it has been comprehensively debunked as fiction by quite a few military history experts. Apologies if it isn't the one you read but worth getting the information out there to save people buying into it, (I did).
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Good grief, yes it is that oneDidn't know it'd been debunked. How annoying.
Aye, very annoying. Sorry.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Now I think about it, there was a rather weird description in the Eckhertz book of a Nazi 'super weapon' which made me wonder why I'd never heard of it before or elsewhere. For sure, the Nazi propaganda machine kept German hopes alive by the promise of super weapons that would turn the tide of the war, but as far as I know, only V-1s and V-2s actually got beyond the planning stages.
So now I want to read a genuine set of accounts of D-Day from a German 'on the ground' POV. Any recommendations gratefully received!
There this, but having been stung once (fortunately only a couple of quid for Kindle) I'm wary...
So now I want to read a genuine set of accounts of D-Day from a German 'on the ground' POV. Any recommendations gratefully received!
There this, but having been stung once (fortunately only a couple of quid for Kindle) I'm wary...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i suppose you've already read sven hassel's liquidate paris (not commenting on its accuracy btw)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
not d-day (as far as i recall) but have you read guy sajer's the forgotten soldier?
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
So I asked one of the milhist people i follow on twitter and he suggested these. Said also that there are thin pickings when it comes to this stuff and to move swiftly past James Holland and Peter Caddick Adams contributions to the oeuvre...as for Hastings, he seems to be getting a hard time from everyone nowadays.
Comments are his:
This is currently the best but it’s not a memoir, it’s a synopsis of ‘most’ of the German units in that theatre at that time.
As for unit history/memoirs I can recommend this. But it’s not just Normandy.
This may be the best overall book your friend is looking for, but by the author’s on admission to me is that there are flaws.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
No, but I will now - looks good. Thanks for the tip.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Nice one, the Hargreaves looks like just the thing. Thanks for asking the Twitter feller
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
No worries. Yeah, I reckon I’ll add it to my wish list as well.
Hollis
bloody furious
On D-Day Beevor also seems also to get slated in Britain. I haven't read any of the books on D-Day, but I get the impression that some of the 'slating' that goes on relates to different views of the effectiveness of the British army in Normandy. It seems Beevor and Hastings are seen as 'playing' to the American market..
ETA: Dunno if any of this extends to the Canadian army.. it might all be a 'Monty' issue..
ETA: Dunno if any of this extends to the Canadian army.. it might all be a 'Monty' issue..
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
He's come through with another one, bit pricey though. Says it is really good.
The Devil's Garden: Rommel's Desperate Defense of Omaha Beach on D-Day: Zaloga author of Author of The Kremlin's Nuclear Sword: The Rise and Fall of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces 1945–2000, Steven: 9780811712286: Amazon.com: Books
The Devil's Garden: Rommel's Desperate Defense of Omaha Beach on D-Day [Zaloga author of Author of The Kremlin's Nuclear Sword: The Rise and Fall of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces 1945–2000, Steven] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Devil's Garden: Rommel's Desperate...
www.amazon.com
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Yes I see a lot of flak directed at Beevor as well, especially for his Stalingrad book. I'm not an expert by any means in this stuff, but it seems to have been a trend by Hastings et al to massively overstate the Germans capabilities and do down the Allied (specifically British) capabilities. Bit of a hangover from the NATO fascination with German Panzer Generals by the looks of it.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
My old man was in the German Army (Waffen SS) for the last part of WWII and always used to complain that the Poles were a really unfriendly nation.
"Do you think it might have been something to do with the uniform you were wearing dad?" "No, no, just naturally a rude bunch, them Poles"
A friend of mine's mother (now deceased) who was alive during the war (infact I think she was a wren) was insistent that Ireland let German U Boats re-fuel during the Second World War. She had quite a disdain for the Irish, partly as a result of this. Despite this being a popular rumour however, it is untrue, as I have recently discovered:
[Despite being frequently encountered as rumours, no U-boats ever used Ireland as a refuelling base.[28] The origins of this claim likely originates with the 1939 dumping of 28 rescued Greek sailors by German submarine U-35 onto the Irish coast, after the U-boat commander Werner Lott sank their Greek cargo freighter, which was bound for Britain with metal ore.[29] This U-boat incident was featured on the cover of the popular U.S. Life magazine, on 16 October 1939. As in the days preceding, news of the dumping was widely published, the magazine and the locals who spotted the unloading of the captured Greeks noted that the U-boat had conducted the action and re-submerged before coastal defence aircraft could be directed onto the trespassing vessel.[29][30]]
[The diminutive Irish Mercantile Marine continued essential overseas trading. This period was referred to as "The Long Watch" by Irish mariners. They sailed unarmed and usually alone, flying the Irish tricolour. They identified themselves as neutrals with bright lights and by painting the tricolour and EIRE in large letters on their sides and decks,[23] yet twenty percent of seamen perished in a war in which they were non-participants. Allied convoys often could not stop to pick up survivors.[24][25] Irish ships always answered SOS calls; they always stopped to rescue. Irish mariners rescued seafarers from both sides, but they were attacked by both, predominantly by the Axis powers. Vital imports arrived. Exports, mainly food supplies for Great Britain, were delivered. 521 lives were saved.[26]
Many British ships were repaired in Irish shipyards.[27]]
en.wikipedia.org
[Despite being frequently encountered as rumours, no U-boats ever used Ireland as a refuelling base.[28] The origins of this claim likely originates with the 1939 dumping of 28 rescued Greek sailors by German submarine U-35 onto the Irish coast, after the U-boat commander Werner Lott sank their Greek cargo freighter, which was bound for Britain with metal ore.[29] This U-boat incident was featured on the cover of the popular U.S. Life magazine, on 16 October 1939. As in the days preceding, news of the dumping was widely published, the magazine and the locals who spotted the unloading of the captured Greeks noted that the U-boat had conducted the action and re-submerged before coastal defence aircraft could be directed onto the trespassing vessel.[29][30]]
[The diminutive Irish Mercantile Marine continued essential overseas trading. This period was referred to as "The Long Watch" by Irish mariners. They sailed unarmed and usually alone, flying the Irish tricolour. They identified themselves as neutrals with bright lights and by painting the tricolour and EIRE in large letters on their sides and decks,[23] yet twenty percent of seamen perished in a war in which they were non-participants. Allied convoys often could not stop to pick up survivors.[24][25] Irish ships always answered SOS calls; they always stopped to rescue. Irish mariners rescued seafarers from both sides, but they were attacked by both, predominantly by the Axis powers. Vital imports arrived. Exports, mainly food supplies for Great Britain, were delivered. 521 lives were saved.[26]
Many British ships were repaired in Irish shipyards.[27]]
Irish neutrality during World War II - Wikipedia
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
more non-belligerents than non-participants, as you can't participate more in a war than being killed in itA friend of mine's mother (now deceased) who was alive during the war (infact I think she was a wren) was insistent that Ireland let German U Boats re-fuel during the Second World War. She had quite a disdain for the Irish, partly as a result of this. Despite this being a popular rumour however, it is untrue, as I have recently discovered:
[Despite being frequently encountered as rumours, no U-boats ever used Ireland as a refuelling base.[28] The origins of this claim likely originates with the 1939 dumping of 28 rescued Greek sailors by German submarine U-35 onto the Irish coast, after the U-boat commander Werner Lott sank their Greek cargo freighter, which was bound for Britain with metal ore.[29] This U-boat incident was featured on the cover of the popular U.S. Life magazine, on 16 October 1939. As in the days preceding, news of the dumping was widely published, the magazine and the locals who spotted the unloading of the captured Greeks noted that the U-boat had conducted the action and re-submerged before coastal defence aircraft could be directed onto the trespassing vessel.[29][30]]
[The diminutive Irish Mercantile Marine continued essential overseas trading. This period was referred to as "The Long Watch" by Irish mariners. They sailed unarmed and usually alone, flying the Irish tricolour. They identified themselves as neutrals with bright lights and by painting the tricolour and EIRE in large letters on their sides and decks,[23] yet twenty percent of seamen perished in a war in which they were non-participants. Allied convoys often could not stop to pick up survivors.[24][25] Irish ships always answered SOS calls; they always stopped to rescue. Irish mariners rescued seafarers from both sides, but they were attacked by both, predominantly by the Axis powers. Vital imports arrived. Exports, mainly food supplies for Great Britain, were delivered. 521 lives were saved.[26]
Many British ships were repaired in Irish shipyards.[27]]
Irish neutrality during World War II - Wikipedia
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
every allied airman who came down over ireland was sent north, whereas every german flier was interned.A friend of mine's mother (now deceased) who was alive during the war (infact I think she was a wren) was insistent that Ireland let German U Boats re-fuel during the Second World War. She had quite a disdain for the Irish, partly as a result of this. Despite this being a popular rumour however, it is untrue, as I have recently discovered:
[Despite being frequently encountered as rumours, no U-boats ever used Ireland as a refuelling base.[28] The origins of this claim likely originates with the 1939 dumping of 28 rescued Greek sailors by German submarine U-35 onto the Irish coast, after the U-boat commander Werner Lott sank their Greek cargo freighter, which was bound for Britain with metal ore.[29] This U-boat incident was featured on the cover of the popular U.S. Life magazine, on 16 October 1939. As in the days preceding, news of the dumping was widely published, the magazine and the locals who spotted the unloading of the captured Greeks noted that the U-boat had conducted the action and re-submerged before coastal defence aircraft could be directed onto the trespassing vessel.[29][30]]
[The diminutive Irish Mercantile Marine continued essential overseas trading. This period was referred to as "The Long Watch" by Irish mariners. They sailed unarmed and usually alone, flying the Irish tricolour. They identified themselves as neutrals with bright lights and by painting the tricolour and EIRE in large letters on their sides and decks,[23] yet twenty percent of seamen perished in a war in which they were non-participants. Allied convoys often could not stop to pick up survivors.[24][25] Irish ships always answered SOS calls; they always stopped to rescue. Irish mariners rescued seafarers from both sides, but they were attacked by both, predominantly by the Axis powers. Vital imports arrived. Exports, mainly food supplies for Great Britain, were delivered. 521 lives were saved.[26]
Many British ships were repaired in Irish shipyards.[27]]
Irish neutrality during World War II - Wikipedia
There does appear to have been a closeness between Irish catholic conservatism and fascism and nazism though. De Valera offered his condolences to the German Minister in Ireland on the news of Hitler's death. This was said to have been in accordance with the diplomatic protocol of a neutral country, but surely it wasn't strictly necessary. De Valera is also said to have attacked reports of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camps as 'anti-national propaganda', apparently this was because the Holocaust undermined the assumptions underlying Irish neutrality: moral equivalence between the Allies and the Axis powers, and the idea that the Irish were the most persecuted people in Europe. It also appears to be true that atleast several Nazi war criminals lived and temporarily stayed in Ireland after the war:
www.irishcentral.com
Also, W T Cosgrave of Cumman Na nGaedhael and later Fine Gael, though not a fascist himself, was at one time part of the same organisation as O'Duffy and the Blueshirts. Though not an actual fascist, he was a catholic conservative authoritarian.
Ofcourse, the British establishment was largely pro-fascist/Nazi before the outbreak of war.
How Hitler’s henchman became an Irish farmer after the war | IrishCentral.com
After the World War II ended, "the most dangerous man in Europe", Otto “Scarface” Skorzeny retired to Ireland where he was welcomed with open arms. He remained unrepentant of his war crimes until the day he died.
Ireland's Nazis - Tile Films Ltd.
2 x 52 min HD Docu-drama https://vimeo.com/16931469 RAF veteran Cathal O’Shannon uncovers the truth about the war criminals and collaborators who found refuge in Ireland in the years after World War 2. The series won the Globe Gold Award (Documentary section) at the Intermedia World Media...
tilefilms.ie
Also, W T Cosgrave of Cumman Na nGaedhael and later Fine Gael, though not a fascist himself, was at one time part of the same organisation as O'Duffy and the Blueshirts. Though not an actual fascist, he was a catholic conservative authoritarian.
Ofcourse, the British establishment was largely pro-fascist/Nazi before the outbreak of war.
Last edited:
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
And usually with a good breakfast in them as well.
Ireland allowed overflight rights and provided navigational aids for Allied belligerent aircraft, provided weather data (far more important than it sounds), provided Signals Intelligence, and shut down the German Embassy's intelligence gathering and communications capabilities.
To a large extent it was an Allied state, its just that the politics/personalities didn't allow it to reap the benefits of being on the winning side.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
maybe there was. but if you think there was it'd be really nice if you'd actually support the case through something less flimsy than these examples. for example, on the comments about belsen the de valera wiki page notes that
Éamon de Valera - Wikipedia
i mean it's not like there weren't people in the irish political class who kept pictures of hitler, dan breen for one apparently. maud gonne rather close to a nazi or two. yeats got awards from nazis and had something of an affinity for a while with the blueshirts. all you give us is de valera said sorry your boss is dead in may 1945 and some equivocal remark about belsen.
Pretty damning about De Valera if you ask me and I don't know why you feel the need to defend such a man. I'm pefectly aware of why he said the things he did btw.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
There does appear to have been a closeness between Irish catholic conservatism and fascism and nazism though. De Valera offered his condolences to the German Minister in Ireland on the news of Hitler's death. This was said to have been in accordance with the diplomatic protocol of a neutral country, but surely it wasn't strictly necessary. De Valera is also said to have attacked reports of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camps as 'anti-national propaganda', apparently this was because the Holocaust undermined the assumptions underlying Irish neutrality: moral equivalence between the Allies and the Axis powers, and the idea that the Irish were the most persecuted people in Europe. It also appears to be true that atleast several Nazi war criminals lived and temporarily stayed in Ireland after the war:
How Hitler’s henchman became an Irish farmer after the war | IrishCentral.com
After the World War II ended, "the most dangerous man in Europe", Otto “Scarface” Skorzeny retired to Ireland where he was welcomed with open arms. He remained unrepentant of his war crimes until the day he died.
Ireland's Nazis - Tile Films Ltd.
2 x 52 min HD Docu-drama https://vimeo.com/16931469 RAF veteran Cathal O’Shannon uncovers the truth about the war criminals and collaborators who found refuge in Ireland in the years after World War 2. The series won the Globe Gold Award (Documentary section) at the Intermedia World Media...tilefilms.ie
Also, W T Cosgrave of Cumman Na nGaedhael and later Fine Gael, though not a fascist himself, was at one time part of the same organisation as O'Duffy and the Blueshirts. Though not an actual fascist, he was a catholic conservative authoritarian.
Ofcourse, the British establishment was largely pro-fascist/Nazi before the outbreak of war.
I went to school with Clissman's grandkids, we didn't realise at the time.
"He was not the only high-profile Nazi to sojourn in Ireland. Albert Folens and Helmut Clissman also came to Ireland. The 2007 RTE documentary “In Hidden History: Ireland's Nazis” estimates that between 100 and 200 Nazis moved to Ireland. It’s believed that Ireland’s anti-British sentiment led to the war criminals receiving a warmer welcome than they ought to have."
nogojones
spelling is overrated
Much disapoint for Dan Breen
. My Fight For irish Freedom is a great book
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
being as we've just gone through every allied airman who came down over ireland being returned to the fray and every german one being detained it's clear there's something more complex here than you suggest. you claim there's a closeness between irish catholic conservatism (without defining it) and nazism / fascism and identify it solely with de valera's two comments at the end of the war. is irish catholic conservatism only something which you identify with fianna fail or de valera? there was ACTUAL GENUINE COLLABORATION between eg maud gonne and nazis. you don't seem to have given this matter any real thought, you don't seem to have done even a simple google search (which would return this from the history ireland magazine De Valera, Hitler & the visit of condolence May 1945). if there WAS a closeness between de valera and fascism / nazism i would expect there to be real provable interaction between him and hitler or mussolini before the war - he was after all in power in the 1930s. but instead you try to pass off this dross as gold dust. it won't wash, it really won't, and it does you no favours to say it does.
now, i am not a fan of de valera. i think his politics were in so many ways appalling. but if you want to make the case that there was a closeness between irish catholic conservatism and nazism / fascism make the fucking case and don't rely in two events in 1945: saying 'it's proof positive' makes you look a facile muppet
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh i entirely agree, i really enjoyed mffif - he was to me an inspirational figure. but no more.Much disapoint for Dan Breen
lol I didn't just mention De Valera, I mentioned Cosgrave and the association with O'Duffy and the Blueshirts via Fine Gael and there was the fact that the Blueshirts protected all the groups that went on to form Fine Gael aswell, including Cumman Na nGaedhael (of which Cosgrave was leader for a time). As for Maude Gonne I haven't a clue who she is, have never heard of her and so was not aware of that example, being unable to give such an example.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes i see you edited your post ten minutes after i replied to you.
I edited my post either before or during you posting your initial response to it. I didn't see your response until I had finished editing it.
Similar threads
