World War II

[mojo pixy]

...it couldn't have been a world war without the participation of Japan and China who kicked off rather earlier than September 1939. It's rather Eurocentric to say the least to say that the NSDAP was the cause of ww2

Fair enough. I should know better since one of my grandads served in the RAF in Calcutta during the later part of the war.

And even with the NSDAP, had they not taken to invading the neighbours it's likely nobody would have bothered them, given how much effort seemed to go into appeasement anyway. I wonder if they'd done their genocide in Germany and Austria but not invaded Poland or anywhere else after Sudetenland, how long it might have taken an alliance against them to form.

 

[ferrelhadley]

The Sino Japanese War was an on going conflict that became part of WW2, but it was not the initiating event.
The war is usually seen as a conflict between two shifting blocks of alliances starting with the invasion of Poland in September 1939. The Soviets for example were cobelligerents in that invasion then invaded (among others) Finland in a war that is not really seen as part of the main war but tangential to it. Both ended up at war again with Finland this time being a cobelligerent with the Axis against the USSR.

 

[agricola]

Fair enough. I should know better since one of my grandads served in the RAF in Calcutta during the later part of the war.

And even with the NSDAP, had they not taken to invading the neighbours it's likely nobody would have bothered them, given how much effort seemed to go into appeasement anyway. I wonder if they'd done their genocide in Germany and Austria but not invaded Poland or anywhere else after Sudetenland, how long it might have taken an alliance against them to form.

It is difficult to say, that - with Italy, I think its fairly obvious that they could have sat it out in the same way that Franco did and been left alone afterwards.

However the danger that post-Anschluss Germany posed to its neighbours was so obvious that we'd probably have always seen an alliance formed for mutual protection against them. I doubt though that it would have resulted in military action to stop even a genocide of the kind we saw later in the war, though of course its really questionable that the genocide would have taken the same form that it did (not that they wouldn't have done it if they could). Whether it would have led to them being given a free hand further to the East of Poland is much harder to say.

 

[mojo pixy]

Given how generally murderous they were from the start, sooner or later I agree, something would have happened. In 1939 in Europe, almost nobody seemed to want a war, most countries weren't materially ready for one and there was no appetite for anything like 1914-18 to ever happen again. But eventually the behaviour of the Nazi regime would surely have provoked .. well, something.

On the other hand as raised, Japan was doing its own aggressions at the same time and even without the rise of Nazis in Europe, some huge conflict in east Asia was pretty much inevitable from what, 1937, if not 1931 or so. Even if nobody but the Chinese cared about Manchuria, Britain was never going to be happy about Japan taking Shanghai, Hong Kong and Singapore. The UK at least was bound to be drawn into war there anyway. France too.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Given how generally murderous they were from the start, sooner or later I agree, something would have happened. In 1939 in Europe, almost nobody seemed to want a war, most countries weren't materially ready for one and there was no appetite for anything like 1914-18 to ever happen again. But eventually the behaviour of the Nazi regime would surely have provoked .. well, something.

On the other hand as raised, Japan was doing its own aggressions at the same time and even without the rise of Nazis in Europe, some huge conflict in east Asia was pretty much inevitable from what, 1937, if not 1931 or so. Even if nobody but the Chinese cared about Manchuria, Britain was never going to be happy about Japan taking Shanghai, Hong Kong and Singapore. The UK at least was bound to be drawn into war there anyway. France too.

America as well most likely, while it cited Japanese involvement in China as a reason for the embargo that ultimately led to Japan's YOLO! charge on SE Asia there were definite imperialist motives behind protecting American interests.

 

[zahir]

Some obscure history here. A podcast on Japan's attempts to cultivate support among Muslims in China.

Kelly A. Hammond, "China's Muslims and Japan's Empire: Centering Islam in World War II" (UNC Press, 2020) - New Books Network

newbooksnetwork.com

 

[ferrelhadley]

In 1939 in Europe, almost nobody seemed to want a war, most countries weren't materially ready for one and there was no appetite for anything like 1914-18 to ever happen again. But eventually the behaviour of the Nazi regime would surely have provoked .. well, something.

The UK was rearming in 1938 for a war. This is very clear, shadow factories were already being planned for war production in 1935. There was an acceptance that the war was coming. It was a matter of the huge material re-allocation towards war production during the Great Depression that meant governments could not act as forcefully as they desired.

On the other hand as raised, Japan was doing its own aggressions at the same time and even without the rise of Nazis in Europe, some huge conflict in east Asia was pretty much inevitable from what, 1937, if not 1931

There was a conflict in 1937. It was just not WW2. Yet.

Even if nobody but the Chinese cared about Manchuria, Britain was never going to be happy about Japan taking Shanghai, Hong Kong and Singapore.

There seem to be some degree of confusion over what happened in East Asia. Japan had turned Manchuria into a puppet state by 1934. They had invaded Shanghai in 1932 taking full control of the city in 1937. However their attempts to invade China led to US blockades on things like oil. After much debate the navies "southern strategy", an invasion of SE Asia was decided as a course of action. The primary target was the oil of the Dutch East Indies, but this would mean war with the US and probably Britain. This mean the Philippines plus the two British fortresses of Hong Kong and Singapore had to fall. Japan was very actively being forced out of the aggression in China. This was what led to the war.

The Japanese had renounced the Washington Naval Treat in 1934 and this became effective in 1936. So there were practical implications for foreign policies. Japan and Germany had begun their military expansion earlier so the democracies needed time to get factories and ship yards up and running. The public also needed to see diplomacy had failed, more importantly diplomacy had to fail. The invasion of Czechoslovakia and Pearl Harbour should the failure of diplomatic solutions. This produced the political will for war in Britain, France and (obviously) America and the physical capacity had enabled it.

 

[ferrelhadley]

America as well most likely, while it cited Japanese involvement in China as a reason for the embargo that ultimately led to Japan's YOLO! charge on SE Asia there were definite imperialist motives behind protecting American interests.

Do expand on this. What reasons other than Japanese "involvement" in China do you think were at work.

 

[agricola]

There seem to be some degree of confusion over what happened in East Asia. Japan had turned Manchuria into a puppet state by 1934. They had invaded Shanghai in 1932 taking full control of the city in 1937. However their attempts to invade China led to US blockades on things like oil. After much debate the navies "southern strategy", an invasion of SE Asia was decided as a course of action. The primary target was the oil of the Dutch East Indies, but this would mean war with the US and probably Britain. This mean the Philippines plus the two British fortresses of Hong Kong and Singapore had to fall. Japan was very actively being forced out of the aggression in China. This was what led to the war.

The Japanese had renounced the Washington Naval Treat in 1934 and this became effective in 1936. So there were practical implications for foreign policies. Japan and Germany had begun their military expansion earlier so the democracies needed time to get factories and ship yards up and running. The public also needed to see diplomacy had failed, more importantly diplomacy had to fail. The invasion of Czechoslovakia and Pearl Harbour should the failure of diplomatic solutions. This produced the political will for war in Britain, France and (obviously) America and the physical capacity had enabled it.

TBF one can make an argument that being the first to rearm was something that later came back to haunt the Axis - they got an advantage in terms of time (although even then it was probably more down to superiority of tactics and training/familiarity rather than the equipment being better, even then) against disorganized or overawed enemies, but relatively quickly they both found themselves having to keep in service equipment past its prime (or proven obsolete by developments) whilst facing greater numbers of better equipped forces, with equipment that had the advantage of being designed in terms of the needs of the time.

 

[Elpenor]

If this is happening, then...

YT has pt.1 and 2 of The World at War (the excellent and well-known 26-part Thames TV documentary) and Dailymotion has pt. 3, 4. and 5. This makes me suspect that most if not all episodes can be found online, if not through YT then through DM. Here are the first few anyway.

Pt.1: A New Germany (1933-39)

Pt.2: Distant War (September 1939 - May 1940)

Pt.3: France Falls (May - June 1940)

Pt.4: Alone (May 1940 - May 1941)

Pt.5: Barbarossa (June - December 1941)

I have started watching this tonight, it is on UKTV Play which is the free iPlayer equivalent for various Freeview channels. Accessible via smarttv, app or in my case via their website.

So far it has been superb though hard going at times

 

[spitfire]

Here's a thing. Local to me.

Awful stuff, the memorial is quite affecting when you read down through the names and ages.

"The 3rd of March marks the anniversary of the Bethnal Green tube disaster. One of the worst civilian disasters of WW2. The tube disaster still remains in many locals’ memories and recollective consciousness, but it wasn’t caused by enemy action."

Remembering The Bethnal Green Tube Disaster — Bethnal Green LDN

The Bethnal Green tube disaster was one of the worst civilian disasters of WW2 but wasn’t caused by enemy action.

bethnalgreenlondon.co.uk

 

[spitfire]

You break it? You pay for it.

Spymaster (Land Of Mine) Click through for PDF.

https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2817&context=cisr-journal

 

[spitfire]

Interesting article here on the "Mutiny" at Freeman Field which helped move the US military towards de-segregation.

Mutiny at Freeman Field: The Tuskegee Airmen on Trial, Part 2

In 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen of the 477th Bombardment Group protested discrimination at Freeman Field through pre-planned displays of resistance against the segregated officers' clubs.

airandspace.si.edu

 

[Hollis]

 

[likesfish]

Got to drink with some SS veterans once they weren't sorry at all!
Regretted fighting the British as we knew how to treat the lesser races and got away with it! When the SS admire something it's probably not a good thing.
Bizarrely were a fan of Israel? Claimed the Holocaust weeded out weakness from the Jewish race or possibly just admired armed bastards

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Got to drink with some SS veterans once they weren't sorry at all!
Regretted fighting the British as we knew how to treat the lesser races and got away with it! When the SS admire something it's probably not a good thing.
Bizarrely were a fan of Israel? Claimed the Holocaust weeded out weakness from the Jewish race or possibly just admired armed bastards

One of my tutors/lecturers when I was at uni was a military historian, a working class bloke who had a nice way about him, I got on with him and he was a good tutor etc. Some of his family were jewish aswell. He told me that he met some SS veterans. He was appalled by their lack of regret as some of them thought they'd done nothing wrong. He told me he thought some of them deserved to be shot.

 

[Idris2002]

It's not commonly known that the Japanese had a very serious settler colonial policy in Manchuria, or Manchukuo as they called it. Thousands of people from rural Japan were moved there, with promises of building a new country (this would have had the advantage of preserving the old social hierarchies at home in rural Japan).

After Manchuria was liberated, a lot of these people committed suicide. This link goes to a story about a monument to a mass grave of Japanese settlers that amazingly was not only built under Mao, but survived the Cultural Revolution:

What Happened to the Settlers the Japanese Army Abandoned in China

Seventy years ago today, thousands of Japanese settlers—mostly women and children—found themselves trapped in an area then known as Manchuria, or Manchukuo, the name of the puppet state the Japanese military established in 1931. Abandoned by their army, 80,000 Japanese civilians died in...

www.chinafile.com

 

[agricola]

It's not commonly known that the Japanese had a very serious settler colonial policy in Manchuria, or Manchukuo as they called it. Thousands of people from rural Japan were moved there, with promises of building a new country (this would have had the advantage of preserving the old social hierarchies at home in rural Japan).

After Manchuria was liberated, a lot of these people committed suicide. This link goes to a story about a monument to a mass grave of Japanese settlers that amazingly was not only built under Mao, but survived the Cultural Revolution:

What Happened to the Settlers the Japanese Army Abandoned in China

Seventy years ago today, thousands of Japanese settlers—mostly women and children—found themselves trapped in an area then known as Manchuria, or Manchukuo, the name of the puppet state the Japanese military established in 1931. Abandoned by their army, 80,000 Japanese civilians died in...

www.chinafile.com

Anyone know of any good books about Manchukuo? I've only got one that mentions it often (the book is about Unit 731) but it would be interesting to know what happened there, certainly its not in many general WW2 history books (or even Japan in WW2 books).

 

[seventh bullet]

Without the exaggerations of his later personality cult, a young Kim Il-Sung with his merry band of guerillas was an adversary worthy of fear and respect by the Japanese sent to hunt him down in Manchuria.

 

[scalyboy]

One of my tutors/lecturers when I was at uni was a military historian, a working class bloke who had a nice way about him, I got on with him and he was a good tutor etc. Some of his family were jewish aswell. He told me that he met some SS veterans. He was appalled by their lack of regret as some of them thought they'd done nothing wrong. He told me he thought some of them deserved to be shot.

Many years ago when I was with a German girlfriend, I remember going to Germany and meeting one of her mates, who was fairly right-wing and borderline anti-Semitic (I think she kept it under control cos my then-gf had told her I was half-Jewish)... I do remember being slightly surprised by the respect with which she spoke about Mossad... she was full of admiration at the way the Mossad pursued perceived enemies of Israel and assassinated them, regardless of national sovereignities The general impression I got was that she respected Mossad and Israel because (and I paraphrase): "they don't fuck about, they get the job done". I was somewhat speechless I must say

 

[likesfish]

The sort of ahole whose a fan of Rhodesia the "old" south Africa etc is usually a fan of Israel .
I have a distant relative who was a liberal white South African who converted to Judaism and moved to the west bank

 

[Idris2002]

Many years ago when I was with a German girlfriend, I remember going to Germany and meeting one of her mates, who was fairly right-wing and borderline anti-Semitic (I think she kept it under control cos my then-gf had told her I was half-Jewish)... I do remember being slightly surprised by the respect with which she spoke about Mossad... she was full of admiration at the way the Mossad pursued perceived enemies of Israel and assassinated them, regardless of national sovereignities The general impression I got was that she respected Mossad and Israel because (and I paraphrase): "they don't fuck about, they get the job done". I was somewhat speechless I must say

Well Ha'aretz reported a couple of years ago that Mossad tried to recruit Otto Skorzeny in the 1950s, so I suppose it works both ways.

 

[Idris2002]

Anyone know of any good books about Manchukuo? I've only got one that mentions it often (the book is about Unit 731) but it would be interesting to know what happened there, certainly its not in many general WW2 history books (or even Japan in WW2 books).

I've no idea if this one is any good, but it might suit your requirements: Sovereignty and Authenticity: Manchukuo and the East Asian Modern (State & Society in East Asia): Amazon.co.uk: Duara, Prasenjit: 9780742530911: Books

 

[Hollis]

This has just surfaced.. a recording from the Liverpool Blitz in 1941. Starts at 25 mins for 3 mins.. quite harrowing.

Broadcasting House - 02/05/2021 - BBC Sounds

 

[Hollis]

Blimey..

 

[Elpenor]

I’ve been watching The World at War on UK TV Play catchup (free to watch via their smart tv app) over the last few weeks.

I am nearly at the end, and it’s been a gripping if harrowing watch. I’d read a lot about the war via various history books but I’ve learnt several things from every episode. The Holocaust episode was as expected, hard going

 

[brogdale]

77 years ago today my Gramp picked up this champagne cork that was floating in the sea off Sword beach where he was landed. He returned from liberating Europe from the Nazis in 1945 physically unhurt.

We keep the cork.

 

[brogdale]

 

[Argonia]

Poor bastards who died. Let's make sure it never happens again.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm on/off reading 'Fighter' by Len Deighton (foreword by AJP Taylor) a non fiction one from Len, about the battle of britain. Not long into it but I'm struck once again by the studied contempt in the way the historians of the era write of the Nazi leadership eg goring and his special uniform with the big cross. I not long finished 'With the Jocks' an officers (Peter White) memoir that while good in some ways is immensely frustrating in its refusal to transcribe the words of the ordinary ranks, because it was all so expletive laden he wouldn't record it. So in the end it feels like you're missing the stories of the men he led.