Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh so having admitted you've chopped and changed it since i posted let's put your complaints about all the stuff youYes and I edited my post either before or during you posting your initial response to it.
yeh so having admitted you've chopped and changed it since i posted let's put your complaints about all the stuff youYes and I edited my post either before or during you posting your initial response to it.
yeh, you see how you've moved the goalposts again, because you haven't shown AT ALL that de valera actually expressed sympathy with nazism. condolences to hitler, yeh quite a faux pas. but is sorry your boss is dead in 1945 really expressing sympathy with hitler's political creed? a claim too far. btw i didn't realise my saying i found de valera's political repugnant was defending the man.Oh well, atleast I don't defend catholic conservative authoritarians who express sympathies with Nazism.
As far as I'm concerned, De Valera's expression of condolences at the death of Adolf Hitler coupled with his attack on the reports of the Bergen-Belsen extermination camps is basically the same as, or something very close to, sympathy with Nazism. I think any sane and reasonable person would agree.yeh, you see how you've moved the goalposts again, because you haven't shown AT ALL that de valera actually expressed sympathy with nazism. condolences to hitler, yeh quite a faux pas. but is sorry your boss is dead in 1945 really expressing sympathy with hitler's political creed? a claim too far. btw i didn't realise my saying i found de valera's political repugnant was defending the man.
i don't disagree that what he said was at the very least reprehensible and offensive and stupid. but i don't believe these utterances will bear the weight you put on them. you don't have anything there which shows his favour for fascism, while there are things he actually did, rather than occasional remarks he made, which show he wasn't that close with fascism or nazism - his opposition to the blueshirts and greenshirts for one, his opposition to the italian invasion of abyssinia, and his non-interventionist attitude to the spanish civil war - he made participation a punishable offence. if there was a time for anyone to show their adhesion to fascism or nazism it was surely the 1930s, because by 1945 it was basically a busted flush. but you've not a sausage from that decade and instead rely on two tenuous bits from 1945. it's really disappointing, in the light of people who've told me you've a good spirit, to see you peddle such awful bollocks.As far as I'm concerned, De Valera's expression of condolences at the death of Adolf Hitler coupled with his attack on the reports of the Bergen-Belsen extermination camps is basically the same as, or something very close to, sympathy with Nazism. I think any sane and reasonable person would agree.
I didn't say he was an actual fascist. I said he expressed sympathetic utterances.i don't disagree that what he said was at the very least reprehensible and offensive and stupid. but i don't believe these utterances will bear the weight you put on them. you don't have anything there which shows his favour for fascism, while there are things he actually did, rather than occasional remarks he made, which show he wasn't that close with fascism or nazism - his opposition to the blueshirts and greenshirts for one, his opposition to the italian invasion of abyssinia, and his non-interventionist attitude to the spanish civil war - he made participation a punishable offence. if there was a time for anyone to show their adhesion to fascism or nazism it was surely the 1930s, because by 1945 it was basically a busted flush. but you've not a sausage from that decade and instead rely on two tenuous bits from 1945. it's really disappointing, in the light of people who've told me you've a good spirit, to see you peddle such awful bollocks.
oh that's so fucking weakI didn't say he was an actual fascist. I said he expressed sympathetic utterances.
oh ffs stop making out it was like buenos aires on the liffeyAnd surely he must have had something to do with Nazi war criminals going to stay in Ireland, he was the leader of Ireland after all.
Jeezus christoh ffs stop making out it was like buenos aires on the liffey
well may you palm that face with the pisspoor bollocks you've posted, suggesting that de valera was inviting nazis in.Jeezus christ
and you're arguing that de valera had something to do with their going to ireland, ie he was a motive force in this little ratlineIt is estimated that between 100-200 Nazis moved to Ireland
He let them inand you're arguing that de valera had something to do with their going to ireland, ie he was a motive force in this little ratline
have you any actual evidence to support this claim or is it just another count cuckula fact?
It is estimated that between 100-200 Nazis moved to Ireland
soz, is it? and could i have a link to your source for 'de valera let them in' too, something where he has his fingerprints on each and every case. because i wouldn't like to think you're making this up as you go along.It is estimated that between 100-200 Nazis moved to Ireland
It would be good to have a source for this. I'm not saying it's not true but it does need to be back up with some evidence. I have atleast posted sources.every allied airman who came down over ireland was sent north, whereas every german flier was interned.
I get what you are saying, although these were high profile nazis we are talking about. It just doesn't look good that these people ended up in Ireland and were welcomed by some, Otto Skorzeny being welcomed by a young Charles Hauhey for example. It comes across as suspicious. As for what De Valera said at the end of the war, I can accept that it was not thought out and certainly thick-skinned, but again, is kind of suspicious.I'm no standard bearer for Dev, or indeed Irish foreign policy, but you do realise that there were several million people on the move in Europe at the time, and that very specifically, Ireland had (and has) no overseas intelligence gathering agency/capability, and that it's diplomatic presence was somewhat limited?
I know nothing of the individual circumstances of the movement of these particular people, but I'd put good money on them not introducing themselves as mass murderers, and that the Irish government having little understanding of who they were or what they had done. That said, the 'stiff neck/optics' thing about Dev had him make some strange decisions, mostly - it seems to me - just to be contrary...
so that's an admission you didn't in fact read the wikipedia page on irish neutrality you link to above. an appalling admission, but unsurprising. but i see from there i'll have to amend every to almost every allied...It would be good to have a source for this. I'm not saying it's not true but it does need to be back up with some evidence. I have atleast posted sources.
now, perhaps Count Cuckula you could offer up the source requestedsoz, is it? and could i have a link to your source for 'de valera let them in' too, something where he has his fingerprints on each and every case. because i wouldn't like to think you're making this up as you go along.
I read the parts of that that were of interest to me at the time, mainly the bit about the U Boats rumour. So what?so that's an admission you didn't in fact read the wikipedia page on irish neutrality you link to above. an appalling admission, but unsurprising. but i see from there i'll have to amend every to almost every allied...
Tom Barry was also for collaboration incase anyone was unawareMuch disapoint for Dan Breen . My Fight For irish Freedom is a great book
Shame. Guerilla Days in Ireland was another cracking book.Tom Barry was also for collaboration incase anyone was unaware
Tom Barry (Irish republican) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It would be good to have a source for this. I'm not saying it's not true but it does need to be back up with some evidence. I have atleast posted sources.
Yep I'm aware of the Bengal famine but personally I don't think there was any excuse for the likes of Barry siding with a racist totalitarian power. Atleast Frank Ryan had no choice in his forced collaboration with the Nazis. The alternative, as I understand it, was his execution and the death of his comrades that were also in captivity.Shame. Guerilla Days in Ireland was another cracking book.
After having so much grief from the British, I can see how they were all "my enemies enemy is my friend". And Britains role in WW2 wasn't just lets stop them nasty nazis but more about protecting their empire at any cost. British colonies were treated like shite, just like the way they treated the Irish for centuries - See the Bengal famine of 43, so I can totally see why old IRA volunteers didn't give too much of a fuck for the Brits
Some evidence to back that up would be nice. I'm not convinced that this is actually justifiable or believable considering that these were high profile Nazis we're talking about and considering the closeness of conservative catholics, including the church itself with fascism and Nazism. When combined with the rest of the picture it really doesn't look good (such as De Valera's controversial comments at the end of the war).I'm no standard bearer for Dev, or indeed Irish foreign policy, but you do realise that there were several million people on the move in Europe at the time, and that very specifically, Ireland had (and has) no overseas intelligence gathering agency/capability, and that it's diplomatic presence was somewhat limited?
I know nothing of the individual circumstances of the movement of these particular people, but I'd put good money on them not introducing themselves as mass murderers, and that the Irish government having little understanding of who they were or what they had done. That said, the 'stiff neck/optics' thing about Dev had him make some strange decisions, mostly - it seems to me - just to be contrary...