Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh so having admitted you've chopped and changed it since i posted let's put your complaints about all the stuff you
World War II
- Thread starter Hollis
- Start date
Oh well, atleast I don't defend conservative authoritarians (such as De Valera) who expressed sympathetic utterancess regarding Nazism.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh, you see how you've moved the goalposts again, because you haven't shown AT ALL that de valera actually expressed sympathy with nazism. condolences to hitler, yeh quite a faux pas. but is sorry your boss is dead in 1945 really expressing sympathy with hitler's political creed? a claim too far. btw i didn't realise my saying i found de valera's political repugnant was defending the man.
As far as I'm concerned, De Valera's expression of condolences at the death of Adolf Hitler coupled with his attack on the reports of the Bergen-Belsen extermination camps is basically the same as, or something very close to, sympathy with Nazism. I think any sane and reasonable person would agree.
By the time De Valera was voted out of power in 1948 atleast two Nazi war criminals had already arrived to stay in Ireland. Surely the likes of De Valera must have known about, and probably approved this.
Andrija Artukovic arrived in Ireland in July 1947. He was the Minister of the Interior for the Ustasa regime in Croatia. He was responsible for the deaths of up to a million people.
Celestain Laine, Commander of the SS Breton Militia arrived in Ireland in December 1947. He commanded some of the bloodiest crimes in occupied France.
Details are in the links I posted above.
Andrija Artukovic arrived in Ireland in July 1947. He was the Minister of the Interior for the Ustasa regime in Croatia. He was responsible for the deaths of up to a million people.
Celestain Laine, Commander of the SS Breton Militia arrived in Ireland in December 1947. He commanded some of the bloodiest crimes in occupied France.
Details are in the links I posted above.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't disagree that what he said was at the very least reprehensible and offensive and stupid. but i don't believe these utterances will bear the weight you put on them. you don't have anything there which shows his favour for fascism, while there are things he actually did, rather than occasional remarks he made, which show he wasn't that close with fascism or nazism - his opposition to the blueshirts and greenshirts for one, his opposition to the italian invasion of abyssinia, and his non-interventionist attitude to the spanish civil war - he made participation a punishable offence. if there was a time for anyone to show their adhesion to fascism or nazism it was surely the 1930s, because by 1945 it was basically a busted flush. but you've not a sausage from that decade and instead rely on two tenuous bits from 1945. it's really disappointing, in the light of people who've told me you've a good spirit, to see you peddle such awful bollocks.
I didn't say he was an actual fascist. I said he expressed sympathetic utterances.
And surely he must have had something to do with Nazi war criminals going to stay in Ireland, he was the leader of Ireland after all.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
oh that's so fucking weak
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Count Cuckula no, I disagree that Dev was sympathetic to Nazism - or at least that his statements/actions were evidence of that: his statement about Bergen-Belson was not seeking to mitigate the crime, it was a political action looking to shore-up/justify his/Irelands's public strance that Ireland held no official view of the relative 'badness' of either side.
He was in a bit of a hole, and he wouldn't - like many of us - stop digging.
His official condolences to the German Ambassador was the entirely logical, if perhaps unnecessary, conclusion of having diplomatic relations with Germany in April 1945. Personally I take the view that the policy of Neutrality was, by 1942, a policy that earned very little and cost a great deal, and that by the end of 1944 was self-defeating madness with a thick smearing of hubristic arrogance thrown in for good measure, but if you're going to stick to the diplomatic niceties, then yes, when one head of state dies the other head of state should offer the country and government their condolences.
Whether you need to do that when the country involved has effectively been destroyed and the members of its government are going to the rope is another issue - I take the view that this stuff doesn't show Dev's sympathy of Nazism, rather it just shows his stiff neck and inability/unwillingness to imagine what the optics of it look like to others.
He was in a bit of a hole, and he wouldn't - like many of us - stop digging.
His official condolences to the German Ambassador was the entirely logical, if perhaps unnecessary, conclusion of having diplomatic relations with Germany in April 1945. Personally I take the view that the policy of Neutrality was, by 1942, a policy that earned very little and cost a great deal, and that by the end of 1944 was self-defeating madness with a thick smearing of hubristic arrogance thrown in for good measure, but if you're going to stick to the diplomatic niceties, then yes, when one head of state dies the other head of state should offer the country and government their condolences.
Whether you need to do that when the country involved has effectively been destroyed and the members of its government are going to the rope is another issue - I take the view that this stuff doesn't show Dev's sympathy of Nazism, rather it just shows his stiff neck and inability/unwillingness to imagine what the optics of it look like to others.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
oh ffs stop making out it was like buenos aires on the liffey
Jeezus christ
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
well may you palm that face with the pisspoor bollocks you've posted, suggesting that de valera was inviting nazis in.Jeezus christ
It is estimated that between 100-200 Nazis moved to Ireland
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and you're arguing that de valera had something to do with their going to ireland, ie he was a motive force in this little ratline
have you any actual evidence to support this claim or is it just another count cuckula fact?
He let them in
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
I'm no standard bearer for Dev, or indeed Irish foreign policy, but you do realise that there were several million people on the move in Europe at the time, and that very specifically, Ireland had (and has) no overseas intelligence gathering agency/capability, and that it's diplomatic presence was somewhat limited?
I know nothing of the individual circumstances of the movement of these particular people, but I'd put good money on them not introducing themselves as mass murderers, and that the Irish government having little understanding of who they were or what they had done. That said, the 'stiff neck/optics' thing about Dev had him make some strange decisions, mostly - it seems to me - just to be contrary...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
soz, is it? and could i have a link to your source for 'de valera let them in' too, something where he has his fingerprints on each and every case. because i wouldn't like to think you're making this up as you go along.
It would be good to have a source for this. I'm not saying it's not true but it does need to be back up with some evidence. I have atleast posted sources.
I get what you are saying, although these were high profile nazis we are talking about. It just doesn't look good that these people ended up in Ireland and were welcomed by some, Otto Skorzeny being welcomed by a young Charles Hauhey for example. It comes across as suspicious. As for what De Valera said at the end of the war, I can accept that it was not thought out and certainly thick-skinned, but again, is kind of suspicious.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so that's an admission you didn't in fact read the wikipedia page on irish neutrality you link to above. an appalling admission, but unsurprising. but i see from there i'll have to amend every to almost every allied...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
now, perhaps Count Cuckula you could offer up the source requested
I read the parts of that that were of interest to me at the time, mainly the bit about the U Boats rumour. So what?
Tom Barry was also for collaboration incase anyone was unawareMuch disapoint for Dan Breen. My Fight For irish Freedom is a great book
Tom Barry (Irish republican) - Wikipedia
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Without wishing to be drawn into the current conflict occurring above (in the finest tradition of the Free State), I had been looking into the Curragh thing earlier as I remember reading that the popular story of Allied servicemen being given a train ticket and a packed lunch is a bit more nuanced than most of us think.
US citizens were repatriated and Britishers were interned (until 1943 when even the cloth eared, pig headed DeValera must have seen the direction of travel). I can't find any solid numbers on how many got back to NI but considering there were 200ish Germans and only 40ish Allied then it would suggest there was an underground railroad of some description.
www.irishexaminer.com
"In October 1943 the Allied internees were moved to separate camp in Gormanston, Co Meath, and most were secretly freed. In a gesture towards the Germans, Mollenhauer and 19 of his colleagues were allowed to move to Dublin and enroll at University College, Dublin, or the College of Technology in Bolton Street. They stayed in groups of three or four in rented houses."
"Escape from K-Lines for German internees would prove undesirable, as France was the nearest axis occupied country to Ireland and travelling there, especially via England would prove very difficult. On the other hand, if British internees succeeded in escaping they would only have to travel little over one hundred miles in order to cross the boarder into Northern Ireland. However, the practice of breaking parole in an attempted to return home was condoned by the respective governments as it was seen as an abuse of privilege. Each internee had a duty to affect his escape but this would have to be done legitimately in the form of a break out from the camp. It was also the duty of the military guard in K-lines, to the escape or rescue of the internees. The guards were armed with rifles but ordered not to fire at internees who attempted escape. Even if an internee successfully effected escape from the compound, the Curragh Camp and surrounding towns were populated with off duty troops stationed in the Curragh. It was not long before Irish authorities had a good intelligence network known as G2, to counter escape attempts. Yet many pro British people were willing to aid the allied internees and an organization known as the “Escape Club” was formed. It was headed by Dr. Hugh Wilson who was a veteran of the First World War and established by M19, British Military Intelligence. The “Escape Club” would organize and aid many British internees to attempt escape during the war."
One was sent back because he had broken the rules old boy!
"On 13 December 1941 he walked straight out of camp and after a meal in a hotel, which he did not pay for, he headed into nearby Dublin and caught the train the next day to Belfast. Within hours he was back at RAF Eglinton where he had taken off two weeks earlier in his defective Spitfire.
He could not have expected what was to happen next. The British government decided that, in this dark hour, it would be unwise to upset a neutral nation.
The decision was made to send Wolfe back to The Curragh and internment. Back in the camp, Wolfe made the best of it, joining the fox-hunting with relish."
Even inspired a fillum: The Brylcreem Boys - Wikipedia
In related items of interest is the German Military Cemetery in Glencree, we used to visit it when out on our bikes in the mountains.
www.atlasobscura.com
"IN A LANDSCAPED QUARRY NEXT to the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation lies Ireland’s only German war cemetery. It contains 134 graves of mainly Luftwaffe (Air Force) and Kriegsmarine (Navy) World War II personnel. Many of those interred within washed up on the country’s beaches or crashed their aircraft overhead.
Among the buried soldiers from World War II, 53 are identified remains and 28 are unknown. There are also the graves of 46 civilian detainees who were being shipped to Canada for internment when their ship, the S.S. Arandora Star, was torpedoed by a German U-Boat in July 1940, as well as the graves of six people the British held as prisoners of war during the First World War."
This is quite good for a low budget short film set in Ireland during the time.
US citizens were repatriated and Britishers were interned (until 1943 when even the cloth eared, pig headed DeValera must have seen the direction of travel). I can't find any solid numbers on how many got back to NI but considering there were 200ish Germans and only 40ish Allied then it would suggest there was an underground railroad of some description.
German airmen were guests in Ireland not prisoners
On the 75th anniversary of the internment of German airmen in Ireland, Ryle Dwyer looks back at one of the strangest, most welcoming prison camps of the Second World War
www.irishexaminer.com
"In October 1943 the Allied internees were moved to separate camp in Gormanston, Co Meath, and most were secretly freed. In a gesture towards the Germans, Mollenhauer and 19 of his colleagues were allowed to move to Dublin and enroll at University College, Dublin, or the College of Technology in Bolton Street. They stayed in groups of three or four in rented houses."
K-Lines Internment Camp
www.curragh.info
"Escape from K-Lines for German internees would prove undesirable, as France was the nearest axis occupied country to Ireland and travelling there, especially via England would prove very difficult. On the other hand, if British internees succeeded in escaping they would only have to travel little over one hundred miles in order to cross the boarder into Northern Ireland. However, the practice of breaking parole in an attempted to return home was condoned by the respective governments as it was seen as an abuse of privilege. Each internee had a duty to affect his escape but this would have to be done legitimately in the form of a break out from the camp. It was also the duty of the military guard in K-lines, to the escape or rescue of the internees. The guards were armed with rifles but ordered not to fire at internees who attempted escape. Even if an internee successfully effected escape from the compound, the Curragh Camp and surrounding towns were populated with off duty troops stationed in the Curragh. It was not long before Irish authorities had a good intelligence network known as G2, to counter escape attempts. Yet many pro British people were willing to aid the allied internees and an organization known as the “Escape Club” was formed. It was headed by Dr. Hugh Wilson who was a veteran of the First World War and established by M19, British Military Intelligence. The “Escape Club” would organize and aid many British internees to attempt escape during the war."
One was sent back because he had broken the rules old boy!
Spitfire down: The WWII camp where Allies and Germans mixed
Attempts to recover a Spitfire from an Irish peat bog highlights the peculiar story of the British and German men who spent WWII in neighbouring camps, writes historian Dan Snow.
www.bbc.co.uk
"On 13 December 1941 he walked straight out of camp and after a meal in a hotel, which he did not pay for, he headed into nearby Dublin and caught the train the next day to Belfast. Within hours he was back at RAF Eglinton where he had taken off two weeks earlier in his defective Spitfire.
He could not have expected what was to happen next. The British government decided that, in this dark hour, it would be unwise to upset a neutral nation.
The decision was made to send Wolfe back to The Curragh and internment. Back in the camp, Wolfe made the best of it, joining the fox-hunting with relish."
Even inspired a fillum: The Brylcreem Boys - Wikipedia
In related items of interest is the German Military Cemetery in Glencree, we used to visit it when out on our bikes in the mountains.
Ireland's Only German War Cemetery
It holds the remains of a Nazi spy who was moved there under the cover of darkness.
"IN A LANDSCAPED QUARRY NEXT to the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation lies Ireland’s only German war cemetery. It contains 134 graves of mainly Luftwaffe (Air Force) and Kriegsmarine (Navy) World War II personnel. Many of those interred within washed up on the country’s beaches or crashed their aircraft overhead.
Among the buried soldiers from World War II, 53 are identified remains and 28 are unknown. There are also the graves of 46 civilian detainees who were being shipped to Canada for internment when their ship, the S.S. Arandora Star, was torpedoed by a German U-Boat in July 1940, as well as the graves of six people the British held as prisoners of war during the First World War."
This is quite good for a low budget short film set in Ireland during the time.
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nogojones
spelling is overrated
Shame. Guerilla Days in Ireland was another cracking book.Tom Barry was also for collaboration incase anyone was unaware
Tom Barry (Irish republican) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
After having so much grief from the British, I can see how they were all "my enemies enemy is my friend". And Britains role in WW2 wasn't just lets stop them nasty nazis but more about protecting their empire at any cost. British colonies were treated like shite, just like the way they treated the Irish for centuries - See the Bengal famine of 43, so I can totally see why old IRA volunteers didn't give too much of a fuck for the Brits
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
It's true - in a roundabout way - but still true. allied aircrews were initially detained in the Curragh internment camp - alongside a camp for Axis aircrew - with little attempt to catch them if they escaped. internees had parole, they could go into town, to the races, etc... they received mail, had vegetable patches, and life was rather better than it might be on the Eastern front or in the Libyan desert...
As the war went on and the Irish government's policy of hedging it's bets slacked off in favour of nod-and-a-wink neutrality, fewer allied aircrew wound up in the Curragh, mostly they just got taken to the local barracks or Gardai station, patched up, given breakfast and then driven up to the border by one side of official policy before the other side of official policy kicked in.
It's a bit more complicated than a very simple narrative, but it's essentially true that the overwhelming majority of allied aircrews eventually, or otherwise, returned to their units, while the overwhelming majority of Axis aircrew stayed there for years.
Yep I'm aware of the Bengal famine but personally I don't think there was any excuse for the likes of Barry siding with a racist totalitarian power. Atleast Frank Ryan had no choice in his forced collaboration with the Nazis. The alternative, as I understand it, was his execution and the death of his comrades that were also in captivity.
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Some evidence to back that up would be nice. I'm not convinced that this is actually justifiable or believable considering that these were high profile Nazis we're talking about and considering the closeness of conservative catholics, including the church itself with fascism and Nazism. When combined with the rest of the picture it really doesn't look good (such as De Valera's controversial comments at the end of the war).
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