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World War II

Kevbad the Bad said:
I think a lot more is that the memories were just too painful. Talking about Belsen would just have made my uncle cry, and men of that generation, who had come through the war, couldn't do that. He also wouldn't have wanted to describe the things that he witnessed. It would have upset others as well. Understandable that he would have rather kept it all buried.
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There is certainly that aspect to it, but all I'd say there is that a lot of them did deal with those memories but amongst their own peers - at the regimental reunions especially. Yes, it probably wouldn't count as "talking about it" in the modern sense, but those people knew what had happened, what it was like.
 
agricola said:
There is certainly that aspect to it, but all I'd say there is that a lot of them did deal with those memories but amongst their own peers - at the regimental reunions especially. Yes, it probably wouldn't count as "talking about it" in the modern sense, but those people knew what had happened, what it was like.
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It could just be my extended family, but I don't recall anyone ever talking about regimental reunions. They were all volunteers or conscripts, but none of them regular army. As soon as the war was over they left as quick as they could. Never looked back. My uncle Des who did National Service after WW2 was the same.
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
I think a lot more is that the memories were just too painful.
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I've got lots of war snippets from my family, but this comment provoked a memory of something my mum told me. She was a PA to an academic in Kings College Cambridge in the 1960s. The academic seemed like a perfectly normal and well balanced chap, but one day a fellow academic from Japan came to visit him. Apparently he walked into the hall outside his office, saw the Japanese man, turned right back around and, white as a sheet, told my mum she had to get the Japanese man out of his building right now.

Turned out he'd been a prisoner of war of the Japanese. Never spoke about what happened, and never said another word to mum about this incident, but seemingly 20 years later he couldn't look at a Japanese person or even be in the same building as them.
 
Gerry1time said:
I've got lots of war snippets from my family, but this comment provoked a memory of something my mum told me. She was a PA to an academic in Kings College Cambridge in the 1960s. The academic seemed like a perfectly normal and well balanced chap, but one day a fellow academic from Japan came to visit him. Apparently he walked into the hall outside his office, saw the Japanese man, turned right back around and, white as a sheet, told my mum she had to get the Japanese man out of his building right now.

Turned out he'd been a prisoner of war of the Japanese. Never spoke about what happened, and never said another word to mum about this incident, but seemingly 20 years later he couldn't look at a Japanese person or even be in the same building as them.
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I think that kind of thing was really common, at a level way below logic. A relative of mine voted Leave because of what happened to her Dad at the hands of the German army over 60 years ago, so it still continues.
 
when I was growing up, there were still FEPOW social clubs around the place. A place to ex POW to drink and socialise. Not sure if anyone else has comes across these ?
 
The Italians reputation wasn’t helped by the loss of their army and defeat by the Greeks in Albania in the spring of 1940. The intervention from Britain supplying arms and troops to help Greek forces when the Germans were committed to helping Italian forces was a major diversion that Hitler didn’t need. The Greek Campaign was later blamed by Hitler and the German High Command for the failure of Operation Barbarossa in the Soviet Union by delaying the start of the Russia Campaign several weeks, maybe months. The Germans never forgot Mussolini’s failures and only begrudgingly accepted any Italian victories or assistance.
 
mojo pixy said:
If this is happening, then...

YT has pt.1 and 2 of The World at War (the excellent and well-known 26-part Thames TV documentary) and Dailymotion has pt. 3, 4. and 5. This makes me suspect that most if not all episodes can be found online, if not through YT then through DM. Here are the first few anyway.

Pt.1: A New Germany (1933-39)

Pt.2: Distant War (September 1939 - May 1940)

Pt.3: France Falls (May - June 1940)

Pt.4: Alone (May 1940 - May 1941)

Pt.5: Barbarossa (June - December 1941)
Click to expand...
I re-watched The World at War near the start of the COVID situation, what struck me was that you would never have that type of documentary made today.
It is not in any way radical politically, it was made by the BBC ffs, but the cold realism, cynicism about politics, the dry tone is a million miles from something the BBC or any other network could make today. Just a small example, the views it airs of ordinary people slating Churchill is totally removed the modern hagiography.

(Actually I've just taken example of KGs freeleech and downloaded the predecessor series The Great War, which I've never seen)
 
mojo pixy said:
I believe it was produced by Thames TV in association with th imperial war museum. Unsure if/where there was a BBC involvement.

You're right though, I don't think anyone makes cold, factual docs like that any more. Nowadays it'd probably get called "male, pale and stale" and be criticized for lacking engaging content.
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Thames Television funded Jeremy Issacs the £900,000 (equivalent to £11,000,000 today) to produce the series due to the tax breaks the government had allowed independent television.
The series strength is in firstly, it’s independence from BBC interference, that Issacs’ previous work The Great War endured, but it’s inclusion of those involved in the politics and employment of the war itself, from German High Command and politicians to the Allies political and military leaders. Great series I cannot recommend it highly enough to anyone interested in this period.
 
mojo pixy said:
I believe it was produced by Thames TV in association with th imperial war museum. Unsure if/where there was a BBC involvement.

You're right though, I don't think anyone makes cold, factual docs like that any more. Nowadays it'd probably get called "male, pale and stale" and be criticized for lacking engaging content.
Click to expand...

Everything has that fucking "now feel emotion xyz" music kicking in, if it's a nature documentary it does it's best to anthropomorphize the shit out if the subject
 
mojo pixy said:
If this is happening, then...

YT has pt.1 and 2 of The World at War (the excellent and well-known 26-part Thames TV documentary) and Dailymotion has pt. 3, 4. and 5. This makes me suspect that most if not all episodes can be found online, if not through YT then through DM. Here are the first few anyway.

Pt.1: A New Germany (1933-39)

Pt.2: Distant War (September 1939 - May 1940)

Pt.3: France Falls (May - June 1940)

Pt.4: Alone (May 1940 - May 1941)

Pt.5: Barbarossa (June - December 1941)
Click to expand...
I downloaded the whole series last night, will start watching today.
 
Hollis said:
It strikes me as unusal that there is no thread where one can post any random stuff on ones mind regarding World War Two.
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Good thread suggestion. :thumbs:

Over the last decade I've found myself planning trips that allow me to visit locations/sites on the continent of WWII interest, (mostly Third Reich stuff), but one that I came to be chance was the Valentin submarine factory in the Bremen suburb of Rekum on the Weser river. We were staying in Bremen and just saw a leaflet for the site and hopped on the train up to the nearby village of Farge.

It really is the most amazing ruin/structure and, if you're ever in a position to be able to visit, provides at least 1/2 a day of interest.
The re-roofed parts show the parts that are structurally safe for the museum/exhibition/memorial and the unaltered parts closest to the river still show the effects of allied bombing that penetrated the reinforced concrete roof.

The scale is epic and the portal on the left of the aerial photo shows where the subs (had they been built) would have exited (via a short canal) into the Weser.



1612086106207.png

I took some photos into the bomb damaged Western section but the light was not great:

1612086900497.png

The destruction was primarily effected by the 617 Squadron ('Dambusters') using Tallboy & Grand Slam bombs precision dropped from Lancasters late in March 1945, just weeks before the Army's XXX Corps occupied the Bremen area.

Aside from the site itself, the areas surrounding the complex present an education about the camps, forced labour and inhumanity associated with the construction. For those familiar with such sites the usual roll-call of ethnic/national groups are included in the memorial to the estimated 6000 forced workers who died during the construction, but there were surprisingly high numbers of French, Italian and even some Irish victims.

The Irish were captured (neutral) merchant seamen who were presented with the option of serving in the German merchant navy or working as forced labourers, so some good anti-Nazi Irishmen died building this facility that, ultimately, never built a submarine.

1612089369939.png

1612089427373.png

The memorial to those killed by the Nazi's building this useless structure:

1612089513565.png
 
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BristolEcho said:
Yep post it up will take a look through it! :)
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https://twitter.com/crusaderproject also has a website/blog with lots about North Africa. About the Project

Sprocket. He would agree with you on the Italians being under rated on the whole. Although they had some very poor units they also had some very effective and brave units.

List of Twitter accounts that may be of interest. No right wing headcases, couple might be soft Tories but that's about it.

https://twitter.com/ReassessHistory - Already posted up above but worth a mention.

https://twitter.com/seanboy_50 - Normandy stuff that you never knew you needed to know.

https://twitter.com/James1940 just because.

https://twitter.com/guywalters - because you can't have Holland without Walters.


https://twitter.com/claremulley - Polish stuff and author

https://twitter.com/rgpoulussen - lots of rare archive footage.

https://twitter.com/rentaquill - various subjects.

https://twitter.com/sommecourt - (WW1 really but whatevs).

https://twitter.com/ckolonko - geek out on authentic WW2 concrete right under our very noses. There's still pillboxes in Hackney, who knew?!?

https://twitter.com/SpitfireFilly - Luftwaffe expert, she's doing her PHD at the mo so not tweeting much but again when she does it is worth reading.

https://twitter.com/militaryhistori I had to unfollow him as he quote replies everything so just completely clogs up your feed. But he does post up some good stuff.

https://twitter.com/BuddNicholas - MG42 obsessive and a real trainspotter of German small unit tactics and the life of a front line soldier. This thread is quite something.

 
brogdale said:
Good thread suggestion. :thumbs:

Over the last decade I've found myself planning trips that allow me to visit locations/sites on the continent of WWII interest, (mostly Third Reich stuff), but one that I came to be chance was the Valentin submarine factory in the Bremen suburb of Rekum on the Weser river. We were staying in Bremen and just saw a leaflet for the site and hopped on the train up to the nearby village of Farge.

It really is the most amazing ruin/structure and, if you're ever in a position to be able to visit, provides at least 1/2 a day of interest.
The re-roofed parts show the parts that are structurally safe for the museum/exhibition/memorial and the unaltered parts closest to the river still show the effects of allied bombing that penetrated the reinforced concrete roof.

The scale is epic and the portal on the left of the aerial photo shows where the subs (had they been built) would have exited (via a short canal) into the Weser.



View attachment 252149

I took some photos into the bomb damaged Western section but the light was not great:

View attachment 252151

The destruction was primarily effected by the 617 Squadron ('Dambusters') using Tallboy & Grand Slam bombs precision dropped from Lancasters late in March 1945, just weeks before the Army's XXX Corps occupied the Bremen area.

Aside from the site itself, the areas surrounding the complex present an education about the camps, forced labour and inhumanity associated with the construction. For those familiar with such sites the usual roll-call of ethnic/national groups are included in the memorial to the estimated 6000 forced workers who died during the construction, but there were surprisingly high numbers of French, Italian and even some Irish victims.

The Irish were captured (neutral) merchant seamen who were presented with the option of serving in the German merchant navy or working as forced labourers, so some good anti-Nazi Irishmen died building this facility that, ultimately, never built a submarine.

View attachment 252158

View attachment 252160

The memorial to those killed by the Nazi's building this useless structure:

View attachment 252162
Click to expand...
This is a view (looking West towards the river) out through the Western wall where completed Wilhelm Bauer subs would have been launched into the Weser via a short canal through the river bank:

1612105164026.png

A version of one the subs (now at Bremerhaven) intended to be built at the Valentin (1) site:

1612105621526.png

In the 1980's peace activists employed the vast West wall as a platform for their protest graffiti, and some were convicted of damaging German state property as the complex was then used as a store for the Navy:

1612105764673.png
 
redsquirrel said:
I re-watched The World at War near the start of the COVID situation, what struck me was that you would never have that type of documentary made today.
It is not in any way radical politically, it was made by the BBC ffs, but the cold realism, cynicism about politics, the dry tone is a million miles from something the BBC or any other network could make today. Just a small example, the views it airs of ordinary people slating Churchill is totally removed the modern hagiography.

(Actually I've just taken example of KGs freeleech and downloaded the predecessor series The Great War, which I've never seen)
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Brilliant series - epic even , and there are some good "domestic war" episodes "Inside the Reich" and one on the UK home front war.

Done at the right time ,and when many of the players were still around. Shame they did not do a programme on the tragic nation that was Poland (there are bits scattered through the series)
 
I have to agree spitfire, some Italian divisions fought like lions, their artillery units were effective and deadly. I also spent a long time researching the story of the Italian 33rd Infantry Division Acqui.
These are the Italians who following Italy’s surrender in September 1943, resisted and fought the Germans on Kefalonia. I had already visited the memorial on Kefalonia long before Louis de Berniers Captain Corelli’s Mandolin became more widely known. Like many places were massacres have taken place there is a strange silence and calm about the place. All lives matter to someone, somewhere. The numbers of dead following the war are still shocking.
 
Sprocket. said:
I have to agree spitfire, some Italian divisions fought like lions, their artillery units were effective and deadly. I also spent a long time researching the story of the Italian 33rd Infantry Division Acqui.
These are the Italians who following Italy’s surrender in September 1943, resisted and fought the Germans on Kefalonia. I had already visited the memorial on Kefalonia long before Louis de Berniers Captain Corelli’s Mandolin became more widely known. Like many places were massacres have taken place there is a strange silence and calm about the place. All lives matter to someone, somewhere. The numbers of dead following the war are still shocking.
Click to expand...

I didn't know about that when I visited Kefalonia so missed out on it.
 
brogdale said:
This is a view (looking West towards the river) out through the Western wall where completed Wilhelm Bauer subs would have been launched into the Weser via a short canal through the river bank:

View attachment 252209

A version of one the subs (now at Bremerhaven) intended to be built at the Valentin (1) site:

View attachment 252212

In the 1980's peace activists employed the vast West wall as a platform for their protest graffiti, and some were convicted of damaging German state property as the complex was then used as a store for the Navy:

View attachment 252213
Click to expand...

thanks for these - the only one I've seen in the flesh of those are the pens at St. Nazaire; one is never really prepared for how big the things are
 
There are anecdotes about "a German officer said this" or "a German general said that".
It is pretty widely accepted these days that the German officer corps lied their little black heats out when writing memoirs and histories about the war, especially the Russo German War. There was a coordinated effort to sanitise their involvement in the mass murder and genocide and to explain away the failures "it woz 'itler wot did it",
They were up to their fucking eye balls in it. By early in the war von Reichenau had issued the "Severity Order". Here is some of the text.

The most important objective of this campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its sources of power and the extermination of the Asiatic influence in European civilization.

In this eastern theatre, the soldier is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception and the avenger of bestialities which have been inflicted upon German and racially related nations. For this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry. The Army has to aim at another purpose, i. e., the annihilation of revolts in hinterland which, as experience proves, have always been caused by Jews.
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This was a Army Group commander in October 1941.

In Hitler they did not find a horrific leader imposed upon them against their will, the found the "stanner" the man of iron they had wished the Kaiser of 20 years earlier to have been. They were willing an enthusiastic accomplices in the horror unleashed.
For the most part the German higher officer corps did not seem to go to war as an army of a nation but as an army of a race, "die herrenolk". With an aim to racially unite the Germanic peoples into one nation and engage in "vernichtungskrieg" against lesser races, Slavs Jews and others. (A war of annihilation).


When the scale of the atrocities were revealed those who could worked to rewrite the narrative. Halder, Manstein, Guderian etc in the west worked heavily on this. David Gantz points out the US needed to understand Soviet war doctrine and they had the first hand experience so they let them write their history of the Soviet German war which they duly shifted all the blame to the SS and Hitler.

"A German officer said...." needs a serious dose of "bullshit be gone" with it.
 
ferrelhadley said:
There are anecdotes about "a German officer said this" or "a German general said that".
It is pretty widely accepted these days that the German officer corps lied their little black heats out when writing memoirs and histories about the war, especially the Russo German War. There was a coordinated effort to sanitise their involvement in the mass murder and genocide and to explain away the failures "it woz 'itler wot did it",
They were up to their fucking eye balls in it. By early in the war von Reichenau had issued the "Severity Order". Here is some of the text.

This was a Army Group commander in October 1941.

In Hitler they did not find a horrific leader imposed upon them against their will, the found the "stanner" the man of iron they had wished the Kaiser of 20 years earlier to have been. They were willing an enthusiastic accomplices in the horror unleashed.
For the most part the German higher officer corps did not seem to go to war as an army of a nation but as an army of a race, "die herrenolk". With an aim to racially unite the Germanic peoples into one nation and engage in "vernichtungskrieg" against lesser races, Slavs Jews and others. (A war of annihilation).


When the scale of the atrocities were revealed those who could worked to rewrite the narrative. Halder, Manstein, Guderian etc in the west worked heavily on this. David Gantz points out the US needed to understand Soviet war doctrine and they had the first hand experience so they let them write their history of the Soviet German war which they duly shifted all the blame to the SS and Hitler.

"A German officer said...." needs a serious dose of "bullshit be gone" with it.
Click to expand...

TBF that whole period (when Guderian and the rest were locked up in POW cages* and spent all their time rowing amongst each other) really needs a proper account; as you say they blamed everyone else (as their predecessors did in the first war), and the myth of the "good" German WW2 general who survived the war was largely born in that place (often cynically taking advantage of the by that point dead people who actually did try and oppose him, however late).

The only slight quibble I'd raise is this idea of them being racially motivated; I think in terms of the general officer class of that time killing people - the enemy, civilians, their own men - was what they did. The idea of race didn't really enter in to it, they would (and did) have happily killed anyone if it meant glory, renown, a baton and estates.

* ie: comfort, at least compared to everyone else
 
agricola said:
TBF that whole period (when Guderian and the rest were locked up in POW cages* and spent all their time rowing amongst each other) really needs a proper account; as you say they blamed everyone else (as their predecessors did in the first war), and the myth of the "good" German WW2 general who survived the war was largely born in that place (often cynically taking advantage of the by that point dead people who actually did try and oppose him, however late).

The only slight quibble I'd raise is this idea of them being racially motivated; I think in terms of the general officer class of that time killing people - the enemy, civilians, their own men - was what they did. The idea of race didn't really enter in to it, they would (and did) have happily killed anyone if it meant glory, renown, a baton and estates.

* ie: comfort, at least compared to everyone else
Click to expand...

No, it was a race war and they knew it and were complicit in it , check the orders issued and the language of them. Don't fall for the clean honorable army nasty SS types bullshit myth. They actively assisted the Einzatzgruppen and carried out many atrocities.

War crimes of the Wehrmacht - Wikipedia
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
I think a lot more is that the memories were just too painful. Talking about Belsen would just have made my uncle cry, and men of that generation, who had come through the war, couldn't do that. He also wouldn't have wanted to describe the things that he witnessed. It would have upset others as well. Understandable that he would have rather kept it all buried.
Click to expand...
Met a veteran who had commanded a group of flame throwing bren gun carriers. Listened while he described what he had done. Not stuff you could tell kids or family members really. Normally got called in when the attack hadn't gone well so saw a lot of dead and wounded moving up. Quite motivated to set fire to some Nazis at that point.
 
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