Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[Athos]

and werent the EDL complaining about the polish in luton/bedford etc?

EDL lack a coherent ideology? Surely not.

 

[The39thStep]

Not sure I'm right to say think/say this, but I have at times felt uncomfortable about conversion/radicalisation of some young Black men, especially those who have lived troubled lives and are vulnerable to exploitation. Most mosques/Muslims are responsible and would not encourage this, indeed, many have rejected members pushing 'jihadi' agendas. I remember a local mosque doing a lot of work with young men holding very distorted and misguided views about Islam and what it allowed them to do in the name of Islam. However, are some elements within the Muslim community (just as in all others) whose motives are to use and exploit to further their agendas.

One of the Woolwich suspects was in fact radicalised at University

 

[cyprusclean]

Der Spiegel sees the incident as a "possible" terror attack.

Possible?

http://www.spiegel.de/international...utal-attack-as-an-act-of-terror-a-901406.html

 

[frogwoman]

Coley gets far too much hassle.

Agreed, I often don't agree with his posts but I always find what hes got to say interesting.

 

[barney_pig]

Bbc reporting arrests made or racist and anti religious comments on Facebook.
From what I have read the prisons will be heaving

 

[frogwoman]

arrests made for anti-religious comments on facebook? are you serious?

 

[coley]

You demanded that people 'pay respect'. As for 'in service of his country', well yes, that is how many people view it. Kurt Vonnegut's last book was called 'A man without a country'. He was very clear about why he now felt he had no country - because of what his country had become. You make political statements without even realising it, I think.

Never read him, but I looked him up and came across an interesting quote from one of his books.

7. "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too."

Seems somewhat apt?

 

[cyprusclean]

Seems the MOD advised against wearing miltary uniforms off base, when not on duty.


And he still got targeted.

 

[cantsin]

What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another, I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing.

" quiet residential areas " are exactly where drones seem to be taking out foreign civi's (along with the odd 'soldier' ) on a regular basis of late, not sure where these neatly laid out 'battlefields " are ? This is something I guess that wouldn't be lost on anyone ideologically crazed enough to think about a Woolwich style attack.

And "Go join the jihadi's " is as about as interesting a response as "why dont you fuck off to Russia then" was back in the day. zzzz.

 

[likesfish]

The thing about jihadists that I dont really get is why anyone would sign up for their cause its not like the eventual goal is terribly attractive.

 

[kebabking]

Seems the MOD advised against wearing miltary uniforms off base, when not on duty.


And he still got targeted.

its still pretty easy to target soldiers - if a young, fit bloke in his mid twenties with short hair walks out the main gate of a barracks its pretty good odds that he's a soldier regardless of what he's wearing.

 

[Idris2002]

I've noticed several times on U75, when Islamonut murderers are being discussed, that people who want (rightly, IMO) to condemn the killers insist (wrongly, IMO) that the killers are cowards.

The murderers are hateful Sharia-mongering shits, but they are not cowards. In fact, they tend to be a very self-sacrificing bunch. They risk their lives - or deliberately throw their lives away - for their cause. They have the courage of their fanaticism, bolstered by their belief that dying in jihad makes them martyrs and so ensures their passage to heaven. Islamoshite fanatics make formidable fighters, as Soviet and later US and other Western soldiers have learnt in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no shortage of them.

Why do people here insist these ruthless killers are cowards? I guess it's because calling someone a coward is a way of condemning them and calling someone brave sounds like praise. I think it is better to look at the world more clearly and speak more honestly. People with horrible reactionary politics and murderous methods are not necessarily cowards, just as people with progressive ideas are not necessarily brave.

Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:

The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed. He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.

 

[cyprusclean]

its still pretty easy to target soldiers - if a young, fit bloke in his mid twenties with short hair walks out the main gate of a barracks its pretty good odds that he's a soldier regardless of what he's wearing.

So the perps must have been doing some sort of surveillance?

Or it could have been any soldier.

First come first served, to put it crudely.

 

[co-op]

Looking at all the reports coming from accross syria, not just the Assad mouthpieces , but from Lebanon, the christians , druze and even the assassinated cheif sunni cleric the message has been consistent for years. The bulk, or what seems like the bulk of the fighting groups seem to be heavily comprised of wahhabists, often foreign . And Ive seen nothing that contradicts that .

And right from the outset thereve been numerous reports of British accents among them.

That's just not true of Lebanon - easily the most effective fighting force there has been Hezbollah, about as far from wahabi as you can get, in fact probably top of the wahabi to-do list in an ideal world.

 

[coley]

" quiet residential areas " are exactly where drones seem to be taking out foreign civi's (along with the odd 'soldier' ) on a regular basis of late, not sure where these neatly laid out 'battlefields " are ? This is something I guess that wouldn't be lost on anyone ideologically crazed enough to think about a Woolwich style attack.

And "Go join the jihadi's " is as about as interesting a response as "why dont you fuck off to Russia then" was back in the day. zzzz.

Did I mention neatly laid out battlefields? I was thinking more along the lines of Afghanistan and Syria not Waterloo.
And those who did "back in the day" seemed to find the experience less than rewarding.

 

[ddraig]

Pay respect, he was a soldier, prepared to die on active service, not murdered in his capital city.

fuck off. won't be cowed into that shite
agree with LBJ's post in response to your trite demand

 

[butchersapron]

The thing about jihadists that I dont really get is why anyone would sign up for their cause its not like the eventual goal is terribly attractive.

Think about that for a minute. Think.

 

[The39thStep]

Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:

The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed. He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.

Great quote.

Heroes aren't groomed

 

[butchersapron]

Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:

The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed. He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.

Nice one.

 

[malatesta32]

staggers:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...es-better-attention-murderers-and-edl-racists

 

[cesare]

its still pretty easy to target soldiers - if a young, fit bloke in his mid twenties with short hair walks out the main gate of a barracks its pretty good odds that he's a soldier regardless of what he's wearing.

He may as well have been walking round with a bullseye on his back*, wearing that tshirt.


* in these unfortunate circumstances

 

[The39thStep]

What a trite piece of factory journalism. ( The New Statesmen article)
Trillings book on the BNP has to one of the most lightweight ever written. Laurie penny described him on Twitter as an expert in the far right, chimp and typewriter springs to mind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Haven't seen reports of this but I'm sure that like me, you've seen (even well attended) guns "blow up".

Best one that I'm aware of was a bloke with a brand new Silver Pigeon who blew his back barrels and lock to fuck on his first shot. Turned out that he'd left the gun lying around and his kid got hold of it and tried to shoot a .410 through it. When that didn't work, rather than telling his dad there was a .410 shell dropped just beyond the chamber, I reckon the kid thought 'maybe no one will notice', drpped his shoulders and whistled .... "wasn't me".

Easy to blame the shooter for not checking his barrels, but he got paid-out with a face-full of Beretta's finest walnut.

Difficult to stoke a revolver, though, unless a shooter is utterly unacquainted with the workings of the gun, or it's so shittily-made that it'll brew up whatever happens. About the only thing you could do to a decently-made revolver to get it to do something like that would be to fill the barrel with molten lead or pewter, or to spike the barrel at the cylinder end, so the bullet has nowhere to go, and the propellant can't get rid of its' exhaust gases.

 

[cesare]

What a trite piece of factory journalism. ( The New Statesmen article)
Trillings book on the BNP has to one of the most lightweight ever written. Laurie penny described him on Twitter as an expert in the far right, chimp and typewriter springs to mind.

Saves me the trouble of clicking the link

 

[butchersapron]

He provides the light relief to Mr Whelan's look, they're fighting!! and swearing!!! style of media-anti-fascism.

 

[butchersapron]

Detained under PACE btw not PTA.

edit: not sure which two suspects they mean here

 

[kebabking]

...First come first served, to put it crudely.

almost certainly - lets not flatter this by thinking it needed a 'plan': this is two blokes deciding to batter a random person on the street with a car and the contents of their cutlery draw. it has greater political significance than that, but this is nothing that couldn't be cooked up in 2 minutes of pissed-up conversation.

 

[ffsear]

sorry if posted already

 

[telbert]

Is that right nigel.

Yes. It is.And my name is not Nigel.

 

[cesare]

Services people: during the Gulf War we stayed with my ex-BiL on Akrotiri for a few weeks. During that time he had to do/warn us about day to day stuff. At one point, he had to carry out a series of checks for car bombs before each time we got in the car, whether on base or not, even after quickly going into a shop. Surely this must apply here, on this base. Were they lax?