Women's independence and sex in capitalist societies compared to communist ones

[damnNAFTA]

So I recently re-watched part of a documentary (Do Communists Have Better Sex (Warning: NSFW)) I had watched a while back which compares the sex lives of people on both sides of the Berlin wall after WW2 and until 1989. The things I took away from watching it were: women in the East were more likely to have their own careers (and therefore be financially independent) while in the West women were expected to be homemakers provided for by returning male soldiers (who would take the available jobs, expecting women employed during the war to give up working). The combination of sex being more openly discussed among families and in school, the GDR's (eventually) more tolerant attitudes about pre-marital sex, government efforts to educate men about how to please women, and a lack of prostitution or (commercial) pornography (pornography produced and distributed in the East did not involve paid actors and was not widely available) make a convincing case that people in the East did have better sex lives (in the sense that they were more equal, mutually pleasurable, etc.). It is also worth noting the documentary focuses on heterosexual relationships, so it leaves out a comparison of the sex lives of LGBT people in the East and West during this time.

Something that seems to be emphasized by the historians and sexuality experts in the documentary is that people in the East did not see their body/sexuality as a commodity. This left me thinking about how discussions about sexuality (and particularly pornography), at least in America (and as far as I can tell, the UK too), among leftists often involve lamenting the how prostitution and pornography (mostly that produced for commercial purposes) are responsible for many problems and I appreciated the alternatives offered by this presentation of life in East Germany.

Anyway, I thought I'd start a thread to discuss this further (searched around for related threads and though there were some I thought it'd be best to start a new one, I'm still fairly new so I hope this is the right place ). Some questions that occur to me are: I have often thought of the Nordic model as a good policy for ending prostitution (or at least making the lives of prostitutes better), but it seems in East Germany there was little demand for prostitution (although it was illegal, it is also illegal in many countries where it is a major business today). Is it because the GDR was a place where women (and men) have access to jobs/an income and therefore less incentive to be prostitutes? (this article, if accurate, suggests that prostitution was not popular in the Soviet Union either: http://rbth.com/society/2013/09/30/sex_in_the_soviet_union_myths_and_mores_30325.html)
Discussions about pornography at times seem to assume it is inherently harmful, the documentary presents what seems to be an example of pornography that may be useful for instruction (based on one example in the documentary, teaching men how to please women) and not be exploitative, I wonder what someone who is currently anti-porn would think about this?
Also, is anyone aware of some other books/documentaries/whatever about this topic or want to share their knowledge?
(Sorry if this is a big mess, still getting the hang of this posting thing)

 

[ViolentPanda]

So I recently re-watched part of a documentary (Do Communists Have Better Sex (Warning: NSFW)) I had watched a while back which compares the sex lives of people on both sides of the Berlin wall after WW2 and until 1989. The things I took away from watching it were: women in the East were mere likely to have their own careers (and therefore be financially independent) while in the West women were expected to be homemakers provided for by returning male soldiers (who would take the available jobs, expecting women employed during the war to give up working). The combination of sex being more openly discussed among families and in school, the GDR's (eventually) more tolerant attitudes about pre-marital sex, government efforts to educate men about how to please women, and a lack of prostitution or (commercial) pornography (pornography produced and distributed in the East did not involve paid actors and was not widely available) make a convincing case that people in the East did have better sex lives (in the sense that they were more equal, mutually pleasurable, etc.). It is also worth noting the documentary focuses on heterosexual relationships, so it leaves out a comparison of the sex lives of LGBT people in the East and West during this time.

There's a fairly-obvious structural reason for the documentary (and most research "behind the iron Curtain" at the time) focusing on heterosexual relationships - at best lesbian and gay relationships were viewed as potentially-bourgeois deviationism/decadence, and at worst were seen as an "off the statute book" social crime.

Something that seems to be emphasized by the historians and sexuality experts in the documentary is that people in the East did not see their body/sexuality as a commodity. This left me thinking about how discussions about sexuality (and particularly pornography), at least in America (and as far as I can tell, the UK too), among leftists often involve lamenting the how prostitution and pornography (mostly that produced for commercial purposes) are responsible for many problems and I appreciated the alternatives offered by this presentation of life in East Germany.

In the GDR, there was also a culture of communal bathing, and even communal toilet use (expecially in kindergartens and higher schools), so hang-ups based around the bodt didn't develop so thoroughly as in the individualistic west.
Don't believe the schtick about little or no porn on t'other side of the Curtain, though. A lot was smuggled in. Not a lot was produced, though (kind of hard in societies where photocopiers were seen as potential sites of samizdat replication, and had to be registered with the local party branch).

Anyway, I thought I'd start a thread to discuss this further (searched around for related threads and though there were some I thought it'd be best to start a new one, I'm still fairly new so I hope this is the right place ). Some questions that occur to me are: I have often thought of the Nordic model as a good policy for ending prostitution (or at least making the lives of prostitutes better), but it seems in East Germany there was little demand for prostitution (although it was illegal, it is also illegal in many countries where it is a major business today). Is it because the GDR was a place where women (and men) have access to jobs/an income and therefore less incentive to be prostitutes? (this article, if accurate, suggests that prostitution was not popular in the Soviet Union either: http://rbth.com/society/2013/09/30/sex_in_the_soviet_union_myths_and_mores_30325.html)

Again, with the GDR, your comparison with the modern Nordic model is a comparison of two entirely-different sets of social circumstance around prostitution. Briefly:
Prostitution in the GDR (and possibly other socialist and communist regimes behind the iron Curtain) was unnecessary from the point of view of providing for your own basic needs, because the state did that for you. Prostitution in the Scandinavian nations is often undertaken by women whose social circumstances are such that they have no credible access to having their basic needs met by the state they live in. Therefore we can posit a "place" for prostitution in the social economy of the Scandinavian nations that didn't really exist (or if it did, only to a vanishingly-small extent) in the GDR.

Discussions about pornography at times seem to assume it is inherently harmful, the documentary presents what seems to be an example of pornography that may be useful for instruction (based on one example in the documentary, teaching men how to please women) and not be exploitative, I wonder what someone who is currently anti-porn would think about this?
Also, is anyone aware of some other books/documentaries/whatever about this topic or want to share their knowledge?
(Sorry if this is a big mess, still getting the hang of this posting thing)

Did the doco (I don't link to video - I've got very limited bandwidth - so I can't watch it) mention the popularity of Alex Comfort's "The Joy of Sex" behind the Iron Curtain?

 

[seventh bullet]

There was independent prostitution in the Soviet Union despite denials by the authorities (and how they dealt with it).

The article is lazy. It breezes through the Soviet era and talks about different periods in a half-arsed way, even using the term totalitarian to describe the Soviet Union generally (a different place at different times). For not just sexuality but the cultures and social mores of different classes in the Soviet Union read Sheila Fitzpatrick, Richard Stites and David L. Hoffmann (although the first and last deal with Stalinism a lot).

 

[Belushi]

In the GDR, there was also a culture of communal bathing, and even communal toilet use (expecially in kindergartens and higher schools), so hang-ups based around the bodt didn't develop so thoroughly as in the individualistic west.

Yes, naturism was massive in the DDR, though its roots go back much further in German culture. They're still better adjusted about these things than Brits IME

 

[damnNAFTA]

There's a fairly-obvious structural reason for the documentary (and most research "behind the iron Curtain" at the time) focusing on heterosexual relationships - at best lesbian and gay relationships were viewed as potentially-bourgeois deviationism/decadence, and at worst were seen as an "off the statute book" social crime.

Ah, I appreciate that information. However, I also think that a documentary that attempts to describe the sex lives of a population could include information about the sex lives of sexual minorities (even if they are persecuted of living in a society and/or government that denies or criminalizes them) if for no other reason than to provide a complete description of the sex lives of the population in that society.

In the GDR, there was also a culture of communal bathing, and even communal toilet use (expecially in kindergartens and higher schools), so hang-ups based around the bodt didn't develop so thoroughly as in the individualistic west.
Don't believe the schtick about little or no porn on t'other side of the Curtain, though. A lot was smuggled in. Not a lot was produced, though (kind of hard in societies where photocopiers were seen as potential sites of samizdat replication, and had to be registered with the local party branch).

That is very interesting. The more relaxed attitude about nudity and stuff described by you and other posters if very fascinating. Would you be able to comment on whether or not this attitude reflects a society that does not consider nudity as something that is necessarily sexual (As for what I mean by it being necessarily associated with sex in some societies: In America, where I'm from, being nude around others is a sexual offense even in some cases where people are inside their homes but others are able to see them through windows)?

Again, with the GDR, your comparison with the modern Nordic model is a comparison of two entirely-different sets of social circumstance around prostitution. Briefly:
Prostitution in the GDR (and possibly other socialist and communist regimes behind the iron Curtain) was unnecessary from the point of view of providing for your own basic needs, because the state did that for you. Prostitution in the Scandinavian nations is often undertaken by women whose social circumstances are such that they have no credible access to having their basic needs met by the state they live in. Therefore we can posit a "place" for prostitution in the social economy of the Scandinavian nations that didn't really exist (or if it did, only to a vanishingly-small extent) in the GDR.

So it is accurate to say that in the GDR people who had the potential to become prostitutes had an easier time finding other types of employment that provided enough to live on (as I wondered about in the original post)? I have read elsewhere that after the end of the Soviet Union Eastern European women who were formerly employed by the state ended up turning to sex work for Western tourists to going to Western Europe or the US to be sex workers. The reason I brought up the Nordic Model is because it is often mentioned in among leftists (at least in America) as a good example of policies that would be suitable to end prostitution (Of course, I believe living in a society where one did not have to worry about unemployment or poverty would diminish one's desire to be a sex worker).

Did the doco (I don't link to video - I've got very limited bandwidth - so I can't watch it) mention the popularity of Alex Comfort's "The Joy of Sex" behind the Iron Curtain?

I will get back to you on that, the documentary mentions an expert that was influential on this topic in the East but I can't remember his name (and haven't had a chance to re-watch and catch the name and can't at the moment but don't want to lose this post again (this is the 2nd draft)).

 

[seventh bullet]

Prostitutes were catering to foreign visitors all the way through the Soviet Union's existence. And are you talking about just the DDR when you mention state provision? Soviet citizens did not have to worry about unemployment (or employment that paid well enough to meet basic needs) and poverty? Which period/s of the USSR are you talking about here?

 

[dylanredefined]

So I recently re-watched part of a documentary (Do Communists Have Better Sex (Warning:
as far as I can tell, the UK too), among leftists often involve lamenting the how prostitution and pornography (mostly that produced for commercial purposes) are responsible for many problems and I appreciated the alternatives offered by this presentation of life in East Germany.
(Sorry if this is a big mess, still getting the hang of this posting thing)

Considering how the state controlled everything in East Germany and how the stasi ran an insane amount of informers. Plus the shortages of consumer goods and the other effects of living in the DDR. I don't think the benefits of fewer prostitutes out weigh the advantages of not having to live in a Warsaw pact country.
The collapse of the USSR meant things got worse for a lot of people ,but, that system was terrible anyway. If you have to employ people to shoot your citizens if they try and flee your country your doing it wrong.

 

[Idris2002]

Considering how the state controlled everything in East Germany and how the stasi ran an insane amount of informers. Plus the shortages of consumer goods and the other effects of living in the DDR. I don't think the benefits of fewer prostitutes out weigh the advantages of not having to live in a Warsaw pact country.
The collapse of the USSR meant things got worse for a lot of people ,but, that system was terrible anyway. If you have to employ people to shoot your citizens if they try and flee your country your doing it wrong.

People round here are sometimes nostalgic about the DDR, but that's only because there's no chance of it ever coming back. . .

 

[goldenecitrone]

People round here are sometimes nostalgic about the DDR, but that's only because there's no chance of it ever coming back. . .

Ostalgie still lingering on. Regarding FKK, an old girlfriend once told me about a school trip to the beach when they were 14. One teenage boy got an erection which resulted in him lying face down in the sand as a load of teenage girls stood around laughing at him. Not sure it that did his self-esteem much good.

 

[Idris2002]

Ostalgie still lingering on. Regarding FKK, an old girlfriend once told me about a school trip to the beach when they were 14. One teenage boy got an erection which resulted in him lying face down in the sand as a load of teenage girls stood around laughing at him. Not sure it that did his self-esteem much good.

That's exactly how I'd expect German women to react, east or west. . . I think the FKK movement was one of the few things that wasn't state controlled in the old East, which would be another factor to consider.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I'm off to Magdeburg in a few weeks. Will see lots of people I haven't seen since 1998. Will be interesting to see how their lives have worked out. Freue mich drauf.