Women's boxing final

[two sheds]

Not just believing/saying but harassing/claiming that she's cheating.

But you're agreeing that having female genitalia isn't the only criterion for whether someone is a woman?

 

[Spymaster]

Not just believing/saying but harassing/claiming that she's cheating.

I don’t think they’ve said that directly. They’ve said men shouldn’t be able to compete in women’s sports.

But you're agreeing that having female genitalia isn't the only criterion for whether someone is a woman?

I haven’t mentioned genitalia.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I’d like to think Khelif’s lawyers have all the data/testing the IBA did plus their own testing, no one else has the full picture and can slam dunk JK Rowling etc in court

But I guess it’s going to be a challenge to the science about what is the definition of male/female gender

 

[Callie]

Khelif has named JK Rowling, Donald Trump, and Elon Musk in her lawsuit citing cyber-bullying.

This is going to be very interesting as all of them tweeted suggesting that she is a man, presumably basing their opinions on the IBF saying that XY chromosomes are present in her DNA.

So, afaics this is going to turn on whether or not XY chromosomes are indeed present in her DNA. If they are, and she is considered a biological male, all those named have done is to express their opinions. If they are not, and she's a biological female, they've defamed her.

I can't see how the IBF can't now be forced to reveal their testing process and results, or Imane compelled to take a DNA test.

Has the IBA said that XY chromosomes are in Khelifs DNA? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing any specific confirmation of what test was performed and or what their qualifying criteria were/are? They should not reveal the results for individuals imo that would be a very clear confidentiality breach but I guess if they revealed tests and qualifying criteria is easy to put two and two together.

Also there is possibly a case either way for high profile people (or anyone maybe) loudly speculating about someone else's genetic make up where the results does not directly concern them.

Surely the real issue they have is more about the industry, the safety of participants, the rules and criteria around qualification and the lack of standardisation. Not one individual who loads have folk have gone for hell for leather when by the rules they qualified. That's not Khelif's fault.

I don't see as much enthusiasm aimed at making the sport safe for all regardless of the circumstances as I do against one individual (maybe two!). I find that off.

 

[two sheds]

I haven’t mentioned genitalia.

Well quite.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Also there is possibly a case either way for high profile people (or anyone maybe) loudly speculating about someone else's genetic make up where the results does not directly concern them.

Yeah, I was wondering about thisnsode of it, too.

If it is agreed that the results of the test are confidential, then would that not suggest that either a) they're publicly speculating/making direct claims based on little evidence, or b) that the confidentiality has been breached in some way?

As you say, though, if there are clear eligibility criteria (although... are there??) and someone allegedly fails those criteria, it's probably not unreasonable for someone to reach a fairly obvious logical conclusion from that.

 

[Spymaster]

Has the IBF said that XY chromosomes are in Khelifs DNA? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing any specific confirmation of what test was performed and or what their qualifying criteria were/are? They should not reveal the results for individuals imo that would be a very clear confidentiality breach but I guess if they revealed tests and qualifying criteria is easy to put two and two together.

Looking around this morning I can only find this. Which may or may not be accurate.

Also there is possibly a case either way for high profile people (or anyone maybe) loudly speculating about someone else's genetic make up where the results does not directly concern them.

Everyone's allowed to voice their opinions. The question here is, in doing so have they broken any laws.

Surely the real issue they have is more about the industry, the safety of participants, the rules and criteria around qualification and the lack of standardisation. Not one individual who loads have folk have gone for hell for leather when by the rules they qualified. That's not Khelif's fault.

I don't see as much enthusiasm aimed at making the sport safe for all regardless of the circumstances as I do against one individual (maybe two!). I find that off.

That's the thing, isn't it. IN bringing the lawsuit, Khelif has forced the issue. Now it's about far more than boxing.

 

[two sheds]

Yeah, I was wondering about thisnsode of it, too.

If it is agreed that the results of the test are confidential, then would that not suggest that either a) they're publicly speculating/making direct claims based on little evidence, or b) that the confidentiality has been breached in some way?

As you say, though, if there are clear eligibility criteria (although... are there??) and someone allegedly fails those criteria, it's probably not unreasonable for someone to reach a fairly obvious logical conclusion from that.

Depending on who made the decision though.

International Boxing Association stripped by International Olympic Committee of status

The International Olympic Committee votes to strip the International Boxing Association of its status as the sport's world governing body.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[two sheds]

Everyone's allowed to voice their opinions. The question here is, in doing so have they broken any laws.

Not really just an opinion though. This is one of her tweets

“Could any picture sum up our new men’s rights movement better?” Rowling wrote on X while sharing a picture of Carini in tears and Khelif trying to comfort her after the match was cut short. “The smirk of a male who’s knows he’s protected by a misogynist sporting establishment enjoying the distress of a woman he’s just punched in the head, and whose life’s ambition he’s just shattered.”

 

[Spymaster]

Well quite.

 

[two sheds]

In discussing whether someone is male or female you've not mentioned whether they have male or female genitalia, so I presume you don't feel that it's important.

 

[Spymaster]

Not really just an opinion though. This is one of her tweets

Well if Khelif is a biological male, that's exactly what that is. An opinion. There's nothing actionable there that I'm aware of.

 

[two sheds]

 

[Lord Camomile]

Depending on who made the decision though.

International Boxing Association stripped by International Olympic Committee of status

The International Olympic Committee votes to strip the International Boxing Association of its status as the sport's world governing body.

www.bbc.co.uk

But they would have been speculating on her gender based on the IBA tests, right? Regardless of whether or not that makes her inelligible for the Olympics?

 

[Spymaster]

In discussing whether someone is male or female you've not mentioned whether they have male or female genitalia, so I presume you don't feel that it's important.

Well obviously someone with male genitalia is not a biological female, but I don't believe that's the case with Khelif.

 

[two sheds]

But they would have been speculating on her gender based on the IBA tests, right? Regardless of whether or not that makes her inelligible for the Olympics?

If you trust the IBA, from that article:

In 2022, an independent investigation said boxing needed to take action on ethical issues to secure its Olympic future, having found a "historical culture of bout manipulation" - including at the 2016 Rio Olympic Games.

In his final report, Professor Richard McLaren detailed decades of financial mismanagement and deception, rule breaking in the ring, and inadequate training and education programmes for referees, judges and officials.

In October, the IBA - which counts Russian state-backed energy giant Gazprom among its chief sponsors - lifted its ban on Russian and Belarusian boxers.

 

[Lord Camomile]

If you trust the IBA, from that article:

Oh, sure, I'm far from convinced.

Sorry, maybe I should have been clearer that "If it is agreed that the results of the test are confidential" was a hypothetical, to explore/question the validity of their own defence argument.

 

[Spymaster]

Oh, sure, I'm far from convinced.

Sorry, maybe I should have been clearer that "If it is agreed that the results of the test are confidential" was a hypothetical, to explore/question the validity of their own defence argument.

I think the confidentiality of the IBF tests is going to become immaterial.

Her complaint seems to distil down to the fact that people have said she's a man; and that claim is damaging or otherwise illegal.

To win that case she'd have to show that they've lied.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I think the confidentiality of the IBF tests is going to become immaterial.

Her complaint seems to distil down to the fact that people have said she's a man; and that claim is damaging or otherwise illegal.

To win that case she'd have to show that they've lied.

Perhaps. One of my other assumptions was they'd have to justify their speculation/assertions in some way, and that's where the IBA tests might become material.

I thought there might be some kind of legal route along the lines of questioning the basis on which they made their claims. I do remember hearing something about the criteria being different for public figures (claiming defamation), though.

 

[two sheds]

somewhat ghoulish anyway, along the lines of examining people before they use a bathroom

 

[Lord Camomile]

somewhat ghoulish anyway, along the lines of examining people before they use a bathroom

Oh, indeed. Not inevitable, but depending on how the situation/discussion develops, there's some potential ramifications that could be very troubling.

 

[Spymaster]

Perhaps. One of my other assumptions was they'd have to justify their speculation/assertions in some way, and that's where the IBA tests might become material.

I thought there might be some kind of legal route along the lines of questioning the basis on which they made their claims. I do remember hearing something about the criteria being different for public figures (claiming defamation), though.

I thought they don't have to do anything and that the BoP is all on the claimant, but could be wrong.

Of course, this is further complicated by the fact that the case is being brought in France, which may be totally different.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I think the confidentiality of the IBF tests is going to become immaterial.

Her complaint seems to distil down to the fact that people have said she's a man; and that claim is damaging or otherwise illegal.

To win that case she'd have to show that they've lied.

Can we go back to calling the IBA the IBA rather than IBF

 

[Callie]

Not really just an opinion though. This is one of her tweets

Not too sure how slander exactly works but I think a very public facing figure with a huge audience stating that an individual is taking pleasure in punching someone in the face, especially if that is then taken in by the audience and used to threaten Khelif directly could be a bit of an issue.

I think it would be very easy to link online threats (hey or even maybe face to face ones) with a perpetrators who like/shares/retweets someone like JK Rowlings posts.

Inciting hatred and violence online. Topic of the month.

 

[Spymaster]

Not too sure how slander exactly works but I think a very public facing figure with a huge audience stating that an individual is taking pleasure in punching someone in the face, especially if that is then taken in by the audience and used to threaten Khelif directly could be a bit of an issue.

I think it would be very easy to link online threats (hey or even maybe face to face ones) with a perpetrators who like/shares/retweets someone like JK Rowlings posts.

Inciting hatred and violence online. Topic of the month.

What she's said there is pretty unpleasant but there's no way it's incitement.

 

[Callie]

What she's said there is pretty unpleasant but there's no way it's incitement.

Slander? These comments to a wide audience could have significant impact on Khelif in her day to day life and professionally

eta: slander/libel/defamation of character not sure

 

[smokedout]

I think the confidentiality of the IBF tests is going to become immaterial.

Her complaint seems to distil down to the fact that people have said she's a man; and that claim is damaging or otherwise illegal.

To win that case she'd have to show that they've lied.

That's not the case under the laws she is currently pursuing, which will hinge on whether she was harassed regardless of what any tests may turn out to say. It also wouldn't be the case under UK defamation law. The onus would be on Rowling/Musk etc to prove she is man and that she was cheating - a serious allegation for an athlete. I hope she sues for libel as well.

What we do know is that Imane is legally a woman in Algeria. She would legally be a woman in the UK as well as France. She competed, as a woman, within IOC rules. In fact I don't think there's a country in the world where being diagnosed with an intersex condition would mean you are required to change your legal sex.

Rowling could have said this woman is believed to have an intersex condition which I think gives her an unfair advantage so the rules should be changed to prevent her from competing. Instead her, and many others, repeatedly misgendered her and insisted she is both a man and a deliberate cheat who enjoys hurting women. They have no evidence for that. They don't know what condition she may have and can't even agree amongst themselves over which conditions would qualify someone as biologically male or female. In the actual existing world gender identity is a big part of how clinicians and experts approach legal sex assignation in the case of intersex conditions.

I think most reasonable people would support intersex people as being the gender they identify with (and in this case were assigned at birth and grew up as) and use appropriate pronouns etc regardless of any opinions they may have about whether they should be permitted in women's sport. It's only because transphobia and terfism has got so out of hand in the UK that this kind of abuse is now normalised, I think elsewhere it comes across as quite shocking and cruel.

I doubt Rowling will end up in the dock, I'm sure her money will protect her. But I do think this is shining an international spotlight on how vicious things have become in the UK and how transphobia is now being used to attack intersex women who do not meet the ever shifting definitions of womanhood that the gender criticals insist on.

 

[Spymaster]

Slander? These comments to a wide audience could have significant impact on Khelif in her day to day life and professionally

eta: slander/libel/defamation of character not sure

I don't think so. Any statement made has to be proven to be untrue for it to be defamatory. Again, the only assertion from Rowling there is that Khelif is a man. She'd have to prove that's a lie, and that the lie has caused her reputational and/or financial damage.

The same caveat applies that French law might not be the same. And of course, all this assumes it actually is a defamation lawsuit. It may be something else completely.

 

[Spymaster]

That's not the case under the laws she is currently pursuing, which will hinge on whether she was harassed regardless of what any tests may turn out to say. It also wouldn't be the case under UK defamation law. The onus would be on Rowling/Musk etc to prove she is man and that she was cheating - a serious allegation for an athlete. I hope she sues for libel as well.

Is that confirmed now? Harassment rather than defamation?

What we do know is that Imane is legally a woman in Algeria. She would legally be a woman in the UK as well as France. She competed, as a woman, within IOC rules. In fact I don't think there's a country in the world where being diagnosed with an intersex condition would mean you are required to change your legal sex.

Rowling could have said this woman is believed to have an intersex condition which I think gives her an unfair advantage so the rules should be changed to prevent her from competing. Instead her, and many others, repeatedly misgendered her and insisted she is both a man and a deliberate cheat who enjoys hurting women. They have no evidence for that. They don't know what condition she may have and can't even agree amongst themselves over which conditions would qualify someone as biologically male or female. In the actual existing world gender identity is a big part of how clinicians and experts approach legal sex assignation in the case of intersex conditions.

I thought she said she is NOT trans or intersex.

 

[cesare]

I thought I saw cyber bullying which would be harassment rather than defamation I imagine.

No idea why she's brought the case in France though, very unlikely to get extradition (at a guess).