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William Rodriguez - Fraud?

editor said:
So how can he say for sure that the first "explosion" - you know, the one that he claims happened before the plane hit - wasn't actually the plane and what he thought was the plane was in fact a secondary explosion? (If in fact he's being truthful about his story).

And how come not a soul out of the tens of thousands of workers in the WTC are backing him up here? I'd imagine they can "place events in the order in which they happened without recourse to atomic clocks too", so why didn't they all report this mysterious pre-explosion?

And where's the seismic data to back up this explosion claim? The seismic data shows no big explosions before the plane hit and I know who I'm inclined to believe here.

And what about his 'screaming' co-workers he claims were next to him? They seem to have gone completely silent ever since! Why is that? If it was me I would have gone straight to the press with my story.

Or are they all 'scared' that they, err, might end up on a world tour and be shifting DVDs like your hero, William Rodriguez?

... and you'd have found that the press started ignoring you because your story didn't fit with the grand narrative - just like they did with WR.

And I thought I just told you that WR had 22 witnesses ready to testify about the explosions in the basement? Do you have alzheimers' or something?

The seismic record backs up William Rodriguez perfectly.
 
Well a friend of mine arrived at the south tower just after the first plane hit the north tower and nowhere in his account or at any time since 2001 has he mentioned anything about fucking explosives. I hate you CT wankers.
 
editor said:
I've already linked to a credible independent source that shows no such spike before the towers were hit.
To sum up the information in the link I just gave: the spike represents the explosion heard by William Rodriguez. The aircraft impact produces no spike, because it is so far off the ground and the plane gets 'shredded'.

The air traffic data produces a time for the impact which is later than the seismic event.
 
Jazzz said:
And I thought I just told you that WR had 22 witnesses ready to testify about the explosions in the basement?
Err, could you explain why it's taken over five years to come up with these witnesses? And you still haven't come up with a remotely rational explanation why the tens of thousands of people in the towers all failed to notice these huge explosions.

Jazzz said:
The seismic record backs up William Rodriguez
I thought I just asked you for a credible source not some fuckwit's loon-fest of conspiracies. That page starts by quoting the Bible, FFS!

Jazzz said:
Do you have alzheimers' or something?
I thought you couldn't stoop any lower after your stern defence and promotion of a filthy site carrying Holocaust denying material, but it seems that you think Alzheimers is a joke too.
 
err, the article I quoted does a fine analysis as far as I can see of the impact times. You make no criticism of it.

You think that whenever the media have not been printing accounts which differ from the official narrative, that means they haven't existed. This is naive and sloppy thinking. Why didn't the 9/11 Commission summon Felipe David and all the other witnesses Rodriguez gave to them? And why did they only hear William behind closed doors when all other testimony was on live television?
 
editor said:
I thought you couldn't stoop any lower after your stern defence and promotion of a filthy site carrying Holocaust denying material, but it seems that you think Alzheimers is a joke too.
Get over yourself.
 
Jazzz said:
The air traffic data produces a time for the impact which is later than the seismic event.

No they don't.
Air traffic data says: 8:46:40 (from your link)

Now if you look at the seismic data (which I'm sure Jazz has done with his love of research and wanting to get to The Truth)
Seismic event: 8:46:44 (give or take half a second)(http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/WTC_20010911.html)

And while I'm here, you haven't addressed the point sin the other 911 thread. Do you have any evidence for either controlled demolition or a reason why aircraft and fires couldn;t topple the towers. I may be wrong but the sum evidence for CD appears to be this Rodriguez guy saying he heard an explosion (before the plane hit).
 
axon said:
No they don't.
Air traffic data says: 8:46:40 (from your link)

Now if you look at the seismic data (which I'm sure Jazz has done with his love of research and wanting to get to The Truth)
Seismic event: 8:46:44 (give or take half a second)(http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/WTC_20010911.html)

And while I'm here, you haven't addressed the point sin the other 911 thread. Do you have any evidence for either controlled demolition or a reason why aircraft and fires couldn;t topple the towers. I may be wrong but the sum evidence for CD appears to be this Rodriguez guy saying he heard an explosion (before the plane hit).
eh? your link says

[seismic event] 08:46:26 (EDT)

which is fourteen seconds earlier than the radar time for flight 11 disappearing.

I talked at length about your other point; take the thread back to my first exchanges with TheArchitect where I list may of the reasons considered to doubt the official collapse theory. I appreciate you probably missed that but it's wearying to go around in circles.
 
Jazzz said:
eh? your link says

[seismic event] 08:46:26 (EDT)
Now go back and look at the graph showing the actual data showing when the seismic event actually occurs (Hint - you will need to look at the scale of the record, and the start time of the record).

Jazzz said:
I appreciate you probably missed that but it's wearying to go around in circles.
Tell me about it :D I'll look it up the beginning of Jazz v Architect and get back to you if I can't find it.
 
axon, I confess I don't understand how that timing correlates. But the statement provided by the laboratory seems unequivocal - the event was recorded at 12.46.26 UTC (to an accuracy of 1 second either way).
 
Yes, there is a discrepancy between their statement and their data.
So where did they get the 08:46:26 (EDT) time from if the data shows something different.

Possible ideas,
1) Some mistake in transcribing times.
2) Some back analysis that arrives at the figure from the data.
3) It's possible that they got the time not from their data but from reports of the impact time (e.g. TV). They do say this later, "We understand from news reports, that the first impact (0846 EDT)".
4) The seismic data they show is faked/edited and they put the true time value of the seismic event along side, thus proving secret explosives, pod missiles, fake planes, holograms etc etc etc :D
 
Jazzz -

The leveling of the Twin Towers generated seismic disturbances that were recorded by a half-dozen seismic recording stations within a 20-mile radius of Manhattan.

Numerous websites have repeated an erroneous interpretation of the seismic recordings as evidence that bombs in the basements of the towers severed the core columns at the onsets of the collapses.

One source of this error is an article by American Free Press reporter Christopher Bollyn.

http://911review.com/errors/wtc/seismic.html

You remember discussing Bollyn the other night don't you Jazzz?

You remember conceding that AFP and therefore Bollyn is an anti-semitic fraud who is simply trying to twist the facts to fit his anti-Jew holocaust denial agenda, yes?

So why are you repeating this mistake a mere 48 hours later?

In six years of "truthseeking" I'd expect most people to have worked out AFP were just a right-wing bunch of bullshitters, not to be trusted, but most people clearly wouldn't include you and your evangelical need to believe, in the face of all this ridicule, the most unlikely bollocks ever typed onto the internet.

Read the facts - not the anti-semitic propaganda - and you might not end up looking like such a cunt.

There appears to be no basis for the claim that the large spikes preceded the collapses, nor that the energy indicated by those spikes was more than could be accounted for by the approximately 110 megawatt-hours of gravitational energy stored in the elevated mass of each tower. And there is strong evidence contradicting the idea that the seismic spikes indicated underground explosions including:

* There is no support in the large body of photographic and video collapse evidence for the idea of powerful explosions in the towers' basements at the onset of the collapses. Instead the evidence shows waves of destruction proceeding methodically downward from the crash zones to the ground.
* Underground explosions would have produced strong P waves, but the seismic stations registered only strong S waves. P waves oscillate horizontally -- parallel to the direction of travel; whereas S waves oscillate vertically -- perpendicular to the direction of travel.

An analysis of the timeline of the North Tower collapse on the 9-11Research site corroborates the idea that the large seismic spikes were produced by rubble reaching the ground.
 
Jazz, are you saying that 'someone' set off some explosives just before the plane hit the first tower, causing the first tower to collapse more than an hour later?
 
Whereas the seismic analysis above throws the idea out of the window, ridiculous as it is (anyone know of a controlled demolition where charges were detonated an hour before the actual collapse, LOL!) - and in any case, the idea that there were explosions is utterly at odds with Rodriguez's initial dated statement to CNN, given 5 hours after the collapse.
 
Jazzz said:
WR has 22 witnesses ready to appear before another investigation. They were there to be called by the 9/11 Commission but were never summoned.

According to who? WR?

Name one, just one such eye-witness who goes along with WR's hastily and dramatically altered account of events.
 
WHEN you consider Rodriguez's testimony, the fundamental question is not whether you believe the official story or not, but whether his version of events is convincing enough. It is beyond doubt that he and his supporters believe his recollection with fervent conviction. However, like so many conspiracy theories, the theory itself is let down by its proponents. During a recent lecture in Glasgow, Rodriguez appealed to the crowd to "examine the evidence". Yet the only evidence put forward in two hours of discussion was his own testimony - and it was clear he was out to convince our hearts as well as our minds. As he described the importance of being a master key holder, he pulled a key from his inside pocket like a magician revealing a vanished coin (incidentally, he used to be a magician before becoming a janitor). He wielded the key triumphantly as if showing us a vital piece of evidence. Of course, for all we knew it could have been the key to his drinks cabinet or front door. Nevertheless, the prop received its intended reaction - gasps of disbelief and wonder. But he had clouded the issue with unnecessary razzmatazz.

Likewise, when explaining how he was the only master key holder to have stayed in the building to aid the evacuation effort, his appeals of "Don't blame them. Don't judge them" seemed crass and insincere. As if we were not going to judge them while we were staring a living, breathing "hero" in the face.

To a seasoned conspiracy buff (and, let's face it, who doesn't love a conspiracy theory?) there was, disappointingly, a vague sense of familiarity about all the unusual behaviour - being late for work for the first time in 20 years; missing testimonies; and mysterious events on the 34th floor (Rodriguez claims he heard the sound of heavy equipment being moved around when he was rescuing workers from the 33rd floor, but this is interesting only because the 34th floor was supposed to be empty).
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/features/display.var.1197355.0.0.php

In my opinion - the guy is a...

rodriguezcopyxr2.jpg


But unlike most conspiranoid loons I am open to reading evidence to suggest his hastily changed claims have any basis in truth.

:)
 
CNN said:
William Rodriguez worked on the basement level of the north tower and was in the building when the first plane struck his building.

"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."

So all the conspiraloons choose to ignore his first and original testimony, in favour of the stories he told later?

If the change had gone the other way, they'd be shouting that he'd been got at in between.

So who got at him to change his testimony?
 
laptop said:
So all the conspiraloons choose to ignore his first and original testimony, in favour of the stories he told later?

If the change had gone the other way, they'd be shouting that he'd been got at in between.

So who got at him to change his testimony?

Well Jazzz himself says he was offered money by the Republicans.

It's obvious the Bush administration would want him to try and spread these dumb unproven lies, to distract attention from the genuine operational failings of 9/11.

So I reckon a Bush aide approached him, offered him money to invent a load of bollocks about explosions, so that people would chase a non-story instead of the truth.

He doesn't care - he's selling tickets to mugs who drink his every word and ask for autographs afterwards, unquestioningly, little hordes of amateur journalists with no journalistic experience whatsoever making claims they can only back up by trawling the propaganda sites of anti-semitic right wing cunts.

Tickets are priced at £6, with a £4 concessionary rate available.

LOL!

scanning-systems.jpg


KER-CHING!
 
pk said:
So I reckon a Bush aide approached him, offered him money to invent a load of bollocks about explosions, so that people would chase a non-story instead of the truth.

Oooh, a second-order conspiracy theory! :D

I'll raise you my fourth-order theory and see you:


some anti-meta-anti-conspiraloon, very soon

The Republicans offered Rodriguez money, not in order directly to deflect attention from their failings as one might expect, but to tempt people into believing that since Rodriguez had been offered money but was still saying what they wanted to hear, then the bullshit he was spouting was all the more genuine because he'd obviously had the integrity to rebuff their blandishments - thereby indirectly deflecting attention from their failings all the more powerfully.​

:D

Or just to make everyone so confused they'd no longer notice they were killing hundreds of American and Iraqi children every month through their domestic and foreign policies respectively.
 
Did Rodriguez plant explosives in the WTC??

It's plausible - more plausible than the fucking bullshit I've read from some people regarding holograms and other such cock.
 
pk said:
Jazzz -

The leveling of the Twin Towers generated seismic disturbances that were recorded by a half-dozen seismic recording stations within a 20-mile radius of Manhattan.

Numerous websites have repeated an erroneous interpretation of the seismic recordings as evidence that bombs in the basements of the towers severed the core columns at the onsets of the collapses.

But the analysis I quoted has precisely bugger all to do with the stuff you are talking about - your quote concerns the seismic records of the collapses, not the impacts.

If you actually read any of this stuff you might be worth having a discussion with. As it is, you're just a muckslinger, and it's pretty off to throw muck at Rodriguez. You have no basis for calling him a 'fraud'. Shame.
 
Jazzz said:
But the analysis I quoted has precisely bugger all to do with the stuff you are talking about - your quote concerns the seismic records of the collapses, not the impacts.

If you actually read any of this stuff you might be worth having a discussion with. As it is, you're just a muckslinger, and it's pretty off to throw muck at Rodriguez. You have no basis for calling him a 'fraud'. Shame.

Links to the analysis you quoted?

I've clearly read more than you on this issue, from a non-evangelistic desperate to believe critical perspective unlike you, otherwise you would have known that the AFP "analysis" you have loved quoting for the past six years was just a front for bullshitting anti-semitic right wing cunts.

Prove he isn't a fraud. Why did he change his initial account from:

"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."

to:

"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking," said Rodriguez, who was huddled together with at least 14 other people in the office.

Rodriguez said Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Co., was one of the people in the room who stands ready to verify his story.

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above," said Rodriguez. "Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."

But before Rodriguez had time to think, co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"

David had been in front of a nearby freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries.

"He was burned terribly," said Rodriguez. "The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn’t have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

The two accounts don't add up, they certainly wouldn't add up in court.

And you wonder why this fraud is ignored by 9/11 investigators, LOL!
 
Besides - for someone like you, who has spent six years eagerly spreading the lies and ideas of fervent anti-semites - and who continues to support a website (by printing t-shirts) that seriously holds the idea that the holocaust was largely a myth - I'd say you have a hell of a nerve calling me a "muckslinger".

:D
 
Jazzz said:
What, guys like William Rodriguez who saved hundreds of lives that day?
He's more likely to be suffering from ptsd.

My mate's account is here. Note the point about dripping aviation fuel.
i drift back down to where i had been standing previously to get a look at the destruction close up. then i see that it is both towers that are fucked, there is a massive hole in the south tower, and the fires seem to be burning downwards, (dripping fuel i guessed),

I'll tell him to change his story to be more conspiraloon friendly, he needs a few bob.
 
That link's dead... I'd be interested in reading the account of someone who was there.

As opposed to the oddball beliefs of a conspiraloon several thousand miles away who believes in fucking chemtrails and holograms and that vaccines cause more harm than the diseases they are meant to prevent.
 
pk said:
That link's dead... I'd be interested in reading the account of someone who was there.

As opposed to the oddball beliefs of a conspiraloon several thousand miles away who believes in fucking chemtrails and holograms and that vaccines cause more harm than the diseases they are meant to prevent.
Works ok for me. Something wrong with the site however. PMd.
 
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