Why can't we just have a 'standard' border in Northern Ireland re: Brexit

[danny la rouge]

Empire is what made Britain Great

Nobody’s falling for this, Ern. But I hope you’re well.

 

[RedStag]

.
So why do you think one part of the UK should dominate over another? Why should one UK resident's vote outweigh another UK residents vote? Isn't the voice of someome in NI as important as someone in England?

How about you just give over on your childish logic - the answer is because the EU poll was a UK NATIONAL referendum.

 

[RedStag]

When is a UK resident not equal to their UK neighbour? Brexit will create second class citizens of all of the people living in NI. And the UK will pay dearly for doing that to the people it claims as its own.

it's actually the Remainers and the ROI that are trying to do this - trying to tie NI into the Single Market or create a border in the Irish sea - - don't you follow the manipulations of the EU or the UK Left? - anything to stay in the EU.

Forget about single M or Customs union - just have a border between N and S Ireland - mainland UK can then make sure that money is invested into Nothern Ireland

 

[Poi E]

I don't believe we can call ourselves a democratic union of nations

No-one has ever called it that, surely? It is a centralised polity with universal franchise, with one nation having more representatives than all the others combined, with bizarre feudal structures abounding.

 

[RedStag]

Peace in Northern Ireland was secured by clawing some power back from the much larger and more powerful UK mainland, and the UK removing Northern Ireland from the EU against the will of its people is a betrayal of both the letter and the spirit of that peace deal.

And now I ask you to show us that clause in the GFA - ie. the part where it says NI cannot leave the EU even if voted for in a national referendum.

Come on , let's see you produce the goods!

 

[RedStag]

If that results in a break up of the UK then perhaps that shows that the UK was always an artificial construct.

what, and you mean the EU isn't???

 

[RedStag]

Almost any version of Brexit is likely to cost the Irish republic dearly too. And nobody there even got a vote. For most voices on both team leave and team remain, democracy is a nebulous thing to be invoked when convenient and ignored when not. This is what I mean by bad faith on both sides.

The ROI is free to have it's own vote on leaving the EU whenever it wishes.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And now I ask you to show us that clause in the GFA - ie. the part where it says NI cannot leave the EU even if voted for in a national referendum.

Come on , let's see you produce the goods!

Your OP has already proven that you're either willfully ignorant of the facts or just being a disingenuous bore on purpose. Whichever is the case, I'm out.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No-one has ever called it that, surely? It is a centralised polity with universal franchise, with one nation having more representatives than all the others combined, with bizarre feudal structures abounding.

Bit of a mouthful though eh?

 

[krtek a houby]

Empire is what made Britain Great - so what the F are you whining about - or would you prefer to be a Bangladeshi working for 10pence an hour?

And of course, you say welcome to the migrants, but it was the lack of control of this which led to Brexit in the first place, ie. the fault of the PC brigade left

This is getting really, really old

 

[SpookyFrank]

The ROI is free to have it's own vote on leaving the EU whenever it wishes.

The GFA is a legally binding agreement between the UK and ROI. Neither party can unilaterally renege upon the stipulations contained therein, one of which is an open border. To close the border lawfully would require he assent of the ROI, which is unforthcoming.

 

[cupid_stunt]

The GFA is a legally binding agreement between the UK and ROI. Neither party can unilaterally renege upon the stipulations contained therein, one of which is an open border. To close the border lawfully would require he assent of the ROI, which is unforthcoming.

But, the UK has no intention of introducing a hard border, so that can only happen if the RoI/EU decides to do so.

HTH

 

[2hats]

But, the UK has no intention of introducing a hard border, so that can only happen if the RoI/EU decides to do so.

So post Brexit the UK isn’t going to enforce any customs/trading tariffs with any country at all, or is planning on leaving the WTO?

 

[SpookyFrank]

But, the UK has no intention of introducing a hard border, so that can only happen if the RoI/EU decides to do so.

HTH

Semantics. The ROI would not be deciding to close the border, its hand would be forced by the UK government and by EU law.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

How about you just give over on your childish logic - the answer is because the EU poll was a UK NATIONAL referendum.

And so half of that nation is ignored???

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The ROI is free to have it's own vote on leaving the EU whenever it wishes.

You're telling the ROI what to do now?

Lol

 

[krtek a houby]

You're telling the ROI what to do now?

Lol

He's banging on about "Empire" and the "mainland", hardly surprising.

 

[alex_]

He's banging on about "Empire" and the "mainland", hardly surprising.

And there was me thinking this was the “sensible” brexit thread.

Alex

 

[Baronage-Phase]

He's banging on about "Empire" and the "mainland", hardly surprising.

It's as if Scotland and NI don't exist....probably doesn't really recognise Wales either.

 

[19sixtysix]

He's banging on about "Empire" and the "mainland", hardly surprising.

Just been listening this afternoon to brexiteers talking on the wireless about our golden age as a trading nation and how we can do it again. I look forward to restarting with piracy, theft, slavery, indentured servants, genocide, murder, walls, camps, private armies, opium trading and and G'n't with a spot of ordinary butchery as the sun sets.

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't believe we can call ourselves a democratic union of nations if one of those nations can act against another without the consent of its people.

No-one has ever called it that, surely? It is a centralised polity with universal franchise, with one nation having more representatives than all the others combined, with bizarre feudal structures abounding.

It's a Kingdom."Constitutional" which really only means the monarch can't dispossess and kill the aristocracy and propertied classes as and when they want. The power structure of a Kingdom remains. Or Leaves, in this case.

 

[cupid_stunt]

So post Brexit the UK isn’t going to enforce any customs/trading tariffs with any country at all, or is planning on leaving the WTO?

Semantics. The ROI would not be deciding to close the border, its hand would be forced by the UK government and by EU law.

You both realise that the vast majority of goods coming into both the UK & EU from outside are not checked at the borders? Perhaps not.

They are dealt with by filing declarations electronically before arriving, and a very small percentage are subject to spot checks, and not even necessarily at the actual border - in the case of Rotterdam, for example, any checks can happen 20km from the point of entry.

Goods between the north & rest of Ireland can easily be dealt with by way of declarations electronically before leaving the factory, farm, or whatever, and if occasionally checks, maybe 1% of the total, need to be carried out, they can be done well away from the border.

There's no need for a hard border, no one wants a hard border, and I very much doubt a hard border will happen, common sense will prevail.

 

[andysays]

You both realise that the vast majority of goods coming into both the UK & EU from outside are not checked at the borders? Perhaps not.

They are dealt with by filing declarations electronically before arriving, and a very small percentage are subject to spot checks, and not even necessarily at the actual border - in the case of Rotterdam, for example, any checks can happen 20km from the point of entry.

Goods between the north & rest of Ireland can easily be dealt with by way of declarations electronically before leaving the factory, farm, or whatever, and if occasionally checks, maybe 1% of the total, need to be carried out, they can be done well away from the border.

There's no need for a hard border, no one wants a hard border, and I very much doubt a hard border will happen,

I was with you right up to the very end

common sense will prevail.

Given the dishonesty and incompetence which have characterised the entire Brexit debate and process, I really wouldn't bet on that bit...

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Brexit: Rights, wrongs and the Good Friday Agreement

This really explains what could go wrong in terms of the GFA and how rights will change in NI once Brexit happens.

It will also explain why the GFA worked and why it cannot be messed with. It was and is based very much on copperfastening human rights and that these rights are protected by the ECHR.
There is genuine fear that these rights will be eroded by those in power when Brexit happens.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You both realise that the vast majority of goods coming into both the UK & EU from outside are not checked at the borders? Perhaps not.

They are dealt with by filing declarations electronically before arriving, and a very small percentage are subject to spot checks, and not even necessarily at the actual border - in the case of Rotterdam, for example, any checks can happen 20km from the point of entry.

Goods between the north & rest of Ireland can easily be dealt with by way of declarations electronically before leaving the factory, farm, or whatever, and if occasionally checks, maybe 1% of the total, need to be carried out, they can be done well away from the border.

There's no need for a hard border, no one wants a hard border, and I very much doubt a hard border will happen, common sense will prevail.

Didn't realise Theresa May had a login here.

 

[likesfish]

Just been listening this afternoon to brexiteers talking on the wireless about our golden age as a trading nation and how we can do it again. I look forward to restarting with piracy, theft, slavery, indentured servants, genocide, murder, walls, camps, private armies, opium trading and and G'n't with a spot of ordinary butchery as the sun sets.

well buying afghan poppy cheap and selling it to the Chinese worked before and is a plan just an evil stupid one but still better than brexit or whatever the plan is in afghanistan

 

[andysays]

Brexit: Rights, wrongs and the Good Friday Agreement

This really explains what could go wrong in terms of the GFA and how rights will change in NI once Brexit happens.

It will also explain why the GFA worked and why it cannot be messed with. It was and is based very much on copperfastening human rights and that these rights are protected by the ECHR.
There is genuine fear that these rights will be eroded by those in power when Brexit happens.

You appear to be saying that all this means that Britain simply can't leave the EU.

Is that really what you're arguing, and can you see how that is likely to be viewed as utterly unacceptable to the majority of British voters, who had no say in the GFA in the first place but are now apparently being told it binds us into the EU in perpetuity?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

You appear to be saying that all this means that Britain simply can't leave the EU.

Is that really what you're arguing, and can you see how that is likely to be viewed as utterly unacceptable to the majority of British voters, who had no say in the GFA in the first place but are now apparently being told it binds us into the EU in perpetuity?

No. But as DUP leader is already talking about tweaking the GFA because of Brexit and the border issue...I think it's important enough to post it.
Did you read the article? It might explain why NI people are freaking out somewhat.

 

[andysays]

No. But as DUP leader is already talking about tweaking the GFA because of Brexit and the border issue...I think it's important enough to post it.
Did you read the article? It might explain why NI people are freaking out somewhat.

I can understand why many people in NI are concerned, just as I can understand why many non-UK EU citizens currently living and working in the UK are concerned, but those concerns can't be used to declare Brexit impossible or illegitimate.

And as far as that article goes, we're not leaving the Council of Europe or the ECHR, we're leaving the EU, so many of the specific concerns about rights mentioned there don't seem to me to hold up.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I can understand why many people in NI are concerned, just as I can understand why many non-UK EU citizens currently living and working in the UK are concerned, but those concerns can't be used to declare Brexit impossible or illegitimate.

And as far as that article goes, we're not leaving the Council of Europe or the ECHR, we're leaving the EU, so many of the specific concerns about rights mentioned there don't seem to me to hold up.

I don't think I ever said it was illegitimate. Or impossible
It is happening so it is possible and it has legitimacy because it was voted on and the miniscule majority won.

But .. just because there was a tiny majority doesn't mean it's necessarily something that's going to benefit the UK long-term..

But who am I to comment.