Who is at "fault" for the gentrification of Brixton?

[Bedgewick3]

Or see here for Red Kens how to do Equality Assessments booklet:

www.london.gov.uk/gla/publications/equalities/eq_impact_assess.pdf

I was at the annual "London Debate" in Bloomsbury a couple of weeks ago. Ken Livingstone suggested that there was a case for bringing into planning guidance the concept of preserving the nature of a community. The example he used was ensuring that there were larger than average homes where there were a lot of large families in the area eg Orthodox Jews in Stamford Hill.

 

[Anna Key]

Why is it OK for you - as a white middle class man - to drink in a 'traditional black pub' but anyone who does the same after you is automatically labelled a 'yuppifier'.

They're not (to answer the second part of your question) at least not by me.

I want people from all social, ethnic and cultural groups to drink in 'traditional black pubs' should they choose to do so.

What I object to are 'traditional black pubs' (and 'tradional Irish pubs' e.g. Bradys and the Queen) being transformed into yuppie hellholes due of a failure by politicans and the community to control the economic forces called 'gentrification.'

It's good to see the Mayor on London, and others, thinking along similar lines:

The (Equality Impact Assessment) focuses on assessing and recording the likely equalities impact of a GLA strategy, policy or project. There is a focus on assessing the impact on certain groups of people known as equality target groups.

It involves anticipating the consequences of policies and projects on these groups and making sure that, as far as possible, any negative consequences are eliminated or minimised and opportunities for promoting equality are maximised.

GLA

I doubt such a study was conducted before the Atlantic, the Coach & Horses, Bradys and the Queen were yuppified (or permantly shut, and now ripe for yuppiefication, in the case of Bradys).

 

[dum dum]

I'll be flamed to hell for this but i just spent the afternoon with a Jamaican man who has lived in Brixton for 40 years,he did'nt like the Atlantic as it was full of young"Badboys" his words not mine,his thoughts on gentrification "Things change."At this point i changed the subject as he was obviously bored.Spent the rest of the afternoon talking about more pressing matters of Arsenal football club.

 

[IntoStella]

I'll be flamed to hell for this

Why would you be flamed for that?

There seems to be an increasing amount of this "I'll get flamed", "I'm scared to post"/ "I'm scared to come to Brixton and bring my young professional mates" etc etc (someone on another thread) sort of mentality, when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that people will be in any way persecuted for not conforming to some entirely imaginary diktat, on the boards and CERTAINLY not in real life.

It's a bulletin board. If someone disagrees with you, that's life. It's not persecution or bullying. (It CERTAINLY doesn't mean that any person who disagrees with you poses any threat in the real world. (I'm sure my new best mate fanta wil back me up on this one Maybe not. )

Or do some posters actually want to take away the freedom of speech of people who don't happen to agree with them?

The implication that anyone would be in any way attacked in real life for coming to Brixton and/or bringing their "young professional" friends, is, I must say, deeply offensive.

 

[editor]

What I object to are 'traditional black pubs' (and 'tradional Irish pubs' e.g. Bradys and the Queen) being transformed into yuppie hellholes due of a failure by politicans and the community to control the economic forces called 'gentrification.'.

You keep trotting this out, but I think you're being way too simplistic.

It wasn't simple 'gentrification' that caused the demise of the Atlantic, the Coach and Horses, Brady's or the Queens - it was a mix of factors.

The Atlantic - as several people have commented - was closed because it was out of control and a drug dealing den. Other posters have described it as being full of 'aggro' and 'badboys'.

The Coach and Horses closed because no one ever went there.

Brady's has tragically been stuck in a planning limbo-land for years on end and I miss it terribly. But it certainly hasn't been gentrified or yuppified and its future seems rather cloudy. I heard it was going to used by the Housing Association for flats, and I don't think they'll be for yuppies.

And I'd hardly describe The Queens as a 'yuppie hellhole' either. I miss it as a friendly, late night drinking venue, but - let's be honest - it brazenly flouted the law for so long that it was nothing short of a miracle that it survived as long as it did.

 

[editor]

Why would you be flamed for that?

There seems to be an increasing amount of this "I'll get flamed", "I'm scared to post"/ "I'm scared to come to Brixton and bring my young professional mates" etc etc (someone on another thread) sort of mentality, when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that people will be in any way persecuted for not conforming to some entirely imaginary diktat, on the boards ....

So you've never stopped to consider why some posters might feel that way, no?

Or are they just wrong and/or lying because you can't work out where they're coming from?

Dum dum is a top bloke so if he feels uncomfortable about posting stuff here, I'm concerned. Aren't you?

 

[IntoStella]

So you've never stopped to consider why some posters might feel that way, no?

Or are they just wrong and/or lying because you can't work out where they're coming from?

Dum dum is a top bloke so if he feels uncomfortable about posting stuff here, I'm concerned. Aren't you?

Yes, I know dum dum is a top bloke. No, I don't know why he thinks he would be flamed for what he said. I am at a loss. Dum dum hasn't, to my knowledge, expressed concerns about posting in the Brixton forum before and has never struck me as a shrinking violet. So what has changed?

Likewise, I am baffled that anybody could report anna key's obviously jokey poll thread to a moderator, claiming it was some evil scheme of AK's to incriminate and gather information on people. So sue me, but I cannot begin to fathom, let alone tolerate, that kind of po-faced idiocy.

As AK has said before, the idea that you can't contradict someone because you might hurt their feelings is complete shite. It doesn't apply elsewhere on the boards, so why here?

Whatever it is that is supposed to be changing, it definitely isn't succeeding in making the Brixton forum a nicer place so far.

 

[editor]

Whatever it is that is supposed to be changing, it definitely isn't succeeding in making the Brixton forum a nicer place so far.

Indeed. Hence my concern.

 

[Streathamite]

I must admit that, having spoken to some posters who do feel intinidated by this forum, I'm getting concerned that some people feel that way (the people in question I like and respect).BUT
1) I still believe people are going by surface impression rather than anything substantive
and
b) what, really, can be done? A forum is what its' posters make of it. some of the arguments on here do appear a bit enclosed & circular, and I guess that deters people-but that simply means it's up to posters - new and old - to post interesting stuff?

 

[hatboy]

I'll be flamed to hell for this but i just spent the afternoon with a Jamaican man who has lived in Brixton for 40 years,he did'nt like the Atlantic as it was full of young"Badboys" his words not mine,his thoughts on gentrification "Things change."At this point i changed the subject as he was obviously bored.Spent the rest of the afternoon talking about more pressing matters of Arsenal football club.

Of course. If anyone think those opinions are a surprise to me they are wrong. Just one person's opinion mate - try collecting a few more.

 

[dum dum]

That wasn't a dig at you Hatboy.I was making a observation made relevant by white middle class posters continually bangin on about lack of black input on these boards.Sometimes people forget community doesn't start at their p.c. I can't be arsed canvassing opinion Hatboy but i'd be interested hearing any results!! I'll be in the beer garden with the rest of the community. A.K,Stella good to see you tonight thanks for the support.

 

[editor]

Of course. If anyone think those opinions are a surprise to me they are wrong. Just one person's opinion mate - try collecting a few more.

Ah. So are you suggesting that because you think you've 'collected' more opinions than anyone else around here, your opinion is somehow more valid or true?

I've lived down the road from the place for over ten years and I can say - hand on my heart - that whenever the Atlantic has cropped up in conversation, I can't recall a single person wishing it was still open or lamenting its closure.

But it's pointless quibbling about this any further. You clearly thought it was a great pub. I didn't and I don't think many people care either way now.

Move on.

 

[hatboy]

Still don't get it do you. I don't care that is was "dodgy" at the end. I'm not denying it was, I could see that myself.

But I didn't fucking care. I don't think it was as unwelcoming as some have found, it wasn't to me. We've got different personalities. I don't mind hanging out with a few "badboys" and having a laugh. They not all so "bad". I'm friendly and outgoing, people don't mind me.

I never though t about it at the time. I was just there enjoying the reggae or whatever, with my mixed-race boyfriend's mum or whoever. Is that cool with you or is that not allowed.

 

[Gramsci]

Gramsci - that phrase comes from an academic study written over 30 years ago about planning in Newcastle. It has precious little to do with current attitudes. I know of precious few small-l liberals, and even fewer Liberal Democrats, who believe that the planning process should be less political.

I dont know about the Newcastle study.I got my info from a Marxist book on planning and cities.I mean political in the sense of challenging the status quo.Planning is about land use etc but does not question the nature of land ownership or private property.Thats what I mean by keeping politics out of it.

As I said compared to now the "Evangelical Bureaucrats"-more Fabian than liberal-at least tried to give equitable solutions to social problems even if it was paternalistic and top down.

Thought using the term Evangelical Bureaucrats would get you going

 

[Gramsci]

Did it? Once large parts of Chelsea were working class, poor and rundown. Even after the Swinging 60s era the Kings Road was full of tatty shops and cheap, crumbling flats. Fashionability transformed it into a very rich area at around the same time as slum areas, including parts of Brixton, were being CPO'd to turn into massive housing projects. For poor areas the 60s & early 70s were indeed an era of grand designs, with all the consequential social disruption and blight that meant, as people like Hollamby imposed their ghastly vision.

It's perfectly true that pre-Thatcher planning was not geared towards private ownership, but granting megalomaniac planners (however well intentioned) the power to rip communities to pieces was hardly any better. Post-Thatcher market economics may erode social networks but it doesn't tend to nuke them.

It wasn't apparent then that decades later areas that retained their mixed old buildings would be seen as charming heritage, ripe for gentrification. Nor was it apparent that the grand visons, however egalitarian their impetus, would soon turn to tarnished concrete jungles that will never be particularly popular.

Im not saying I agree with the large projects envisaged by mainly Labour Councils like Lambeth.They were however based on a politics of providing social housing and services for the "working class".Thus these projects were political planning using local Council and State power.

I must disagree with Post Thatcher market economics.Thatcher "nuked" communities with her free market economics.ie the destruction of the mining industry and manufacturing.This also led to town and inner city area being left to rot.Along come NewLabour and what do they do?Basically keep the NeoLiberal economics.

Take Manchester.Its inner city(also bombed by IRA) is now being transformed by private property developers.Most of the flats are being sold as "buy to let".This would not have happened in the sixties.New Labour argue that Councils should be "enablers" working in "partnership" with the private sector.In Manchester as in London this means loft apartments and highly expensive flats.The final straw came when a developer tried to build on the old Hacienda club using the slogan "the partys over its time to move on".This arrogence caused so much resentment that his planning application was vigourously opposed by local Mancunians.For some inner Manchester has been "Nuked" by greedy developers.

Instead of a radical agenda New Labour accept the post Thatcher status quo.Thats why i argue that "Gentrification" can be traced back to Thatcher.

I take the point about Chelsea.Also Soho and Coin st were under threat by private developers who wanted to build office blocks.So political planning struggles were going on then.

In Brixton much was saved by resistance to "slum clearance".The squatters stopped demolition of Villa Rd for example.Their was a different more Libertarian left around at the time.Also some people did not want to move out of their "slums" to the new big estates.This is IMO not documented enough.I remember it occuring where I grew up and talking to an old lady in Brixton who missed Somerleyton Rd.

 

[Gramsci]

I was at the annual "London Debate" in Bloomsbury a couple of weeks ago. Ken Livingstone suggested that there was a case for bringing into planning guidance the concept of preserving the nature of a community. The example he used was ensuring that there were larger than average homes where there were a lot of large families in the area eg Orthodox Jews in Stamford Hill.

Thats very interesting not heard that before

 

[Gramsci]

I guess that may have lost something in translation, but could you just give us the gist, Gramsci?

Then again:



Poor woman, if she had to listen to that stuff over breakfast, must have been a welcome release.




Well, he'd go down a storm at the Beehive

Good link to Laclau.I have not read enough of him.I guess I was thinking aloud reading that Marxist book on planning.The thing about Althusser and Laclau is IMO its a much more open Marxism-Marxism without gaurentees.

Some of the arguments on the Brixton board relate to race,class,gender.(Gender to its absence on these boards-not something that is complained about much interestingly).

I was thinking that a lot of the discussion on the Brixton board is about;

A)The issue of "Gentrification" or "Hoxtonisation"
B)Living and relating to people in a multicultural area.

Some of the above posts between Ed,HB and AK show the widely different views on how one relates to and sees oneself and others in an area like Brixton.

Brixton is riven with differences based on race,class,sexuality and gender.IMO its particularly acute in Brixton compared to say a rural area where i grew up.Thats the joys and pain of living in a city and an area like Brixton.

I now some people find some of the arguments that go on here destructive.But if one steps back and looks at them from outside they are a quite fascinating example of what I believe Laclau is getting at.

Which is a radical pluralist politics that pays attention to peoples sense of self.However this sense of self and how it relates to society is an area (or should be) of democratic argument and contestation.Its in flux and changeable in ways one cannot neccessarliy predict.(Thats the postmodern part.Their are no fixed "foundations").

I believe the danger of "Hoxtonisation" is the closing down of this democratic space into a homogoneus culture.This also relates to the power of capital-which at the present is still in a powerful position as compared to ordinary people.

I hope that makes it a bit more clearer why it popped into my head to post Laclau etc up on here.Their are links between theory and how people live and see their lives.

 

[Gramsci]

I await a good kicking from I now who for mentioning Post Marxism and Postmodernism.

 

[Gramsci]

As for Althusser the best writers are a bit barmy

 

[theBEAST666]

Everyone. The entire universe and everything in it have conspired to turn the town of bricks into one big macdonalds, kentucky fried chicken and the living room but where crack is still quite easy to come by. Not like Peckham.
Go speak to Buddha, Shiva, Krishna, Brahma, Allah, Yahweh, God, Sheila Na-Gig and then you may receive the answer you seek, but only if you're lucky and you ask nicely and you offer a pack of Fig Rolls (not Crawfords mind, only Lyons will do, or Spar ones maybe).

 

[editor]

Go speak to Buddha, Shiva, Krishna, Brahma, Allah, Yahweh, God, Sheila Na-Gig and then you may receive the answer you seek, but only if you're lucky and you ask nicely and you offer a pack of Fig Rolls (not Crawfords mind, only Lyons will do, or Spar ones maybe).

You're a bit bonkers tonight.

But I do like fig rolls. They're lovely.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

But I do like fig rolls. They're lovely.

sign of impending old age that is. Before you know it you will be sucking on the Worthers Originals.