Who is at "fault" for the gentrification of Brixton?

[tom796]

yeah, i agree with hatboy...

 

[editor]

Wrong Mike, wrong. The Atlantic certainly had its dodgyness, weed was sold there, so what? But it was not unwelcoming. I drank there quite a bit before it went. I had a laugh in there and sometime a friend would bang on the window and beckon me in. NOT UNWELCOMING.

You can say it in capital letters if you like, but it doesn't alter the fact that I found it most unwelcoming - and I've been to all manner of dodgy pubs all over the UK.

I went there when I first moved to Brixton and heard enough sucked teeth and nasty looks to tell me I wasn't welcome. At all.
My Brixton-living friends who'd tried the pub several times in the past felt the same. And that's a fact.

But if the Atlantic was supposedly so loved and such an important part of Brixton's black community, why do you think that barely a soul bothered to complain when it closed? I don't recall any protests, petitions, marches or rallies, nor demands for its re-opening - do you?

Edited to add: don't take this as endorsement for the dreadful Dogstar Mk1 that repokaced the Atlantic - I would have preferred a more inclusive, community based pub, not unlike what the Dogstar is now (weekdays only, natch!)

 

[editor]

Nonsense. Just enjoying a small corner of Brixton's ethnic and cultural diversity before the yuppyfiiers wrecked it.

You'll have to help me here.

Why is it OK for you - as a white middle class man - to drink in a 'traditional black pub' but anyone who does the same after you is automatically labelled a 'yuppifier'.

Don't you see yourself as part of that process in any way at all?

Or is it OK because you were there first?

 

[ernestolynch]

koh-pang-yang.

Fair play on editor....

 

[tom796]

as i said, ed, ak is a drawbridge-puller..

oh, it's dreadful, goa's gone really downhill since i first went there. full of awful whiteys juggling fire on the beach

 

[lang rabbie]

2001 census data for ethnicity v household tenure

Housing tenure by ethnic background of "household reference person" (known as "head of household" in previous censuses)

Lambeth has 118,440 households. The household reference mainly come from five ethnic groups: White British (54%), Black Caribbean (13%), Black African (10%), Other White (9%), White Irish (4%) and Indian (2%). Households with HRPs of other ethnicities make up between 0.4% and 1.4% each.

................White:........ Black:........ Black........Other.......White:........Indian
................British...... Caribbean.....African.......White........Irish..................
Owned...........45.............25...............16...........34...........35..............54
Social rented...30.............68...............71..........30............47.............23
Private rented..23..............7...............11...........33...........17.............21

i.e. figures are percentage of each ethnic group in that tenure of housing.

Analysing the other way (ethnic mix by tenure)
..........................White.....Mixed.....Asian or...Black or...Chinese or
...................................................Asian......Black......Other Ethnic
................................................... British.....British.....Group

All Households...........67.43% 2.99% 3.50% 24.09% 2.00%

Owned.....................78.50% 2.13% 4.50% 13.33% 1.53%

Rented from Council...49.36% 3.82% 2.41% 42.22% 2.19%

Other social rented ...54.10% 4.03% 2.98% 36.50% 2.40%

Private rented..........81.64% 2.63% 3.37% 10.26% 2.08%


Will try to track down the equivalent 1991 data if I can.

 

[newbie]

My comment - Right to Buy, fucked-up policy. Good quality street property sold-off, ghetto estate rabbit hutches remain. Consequence more ghettosation of both rich and poor separately. Less harmony (with or without the racial implications/proportions).

Mixed streets are what you need - owners, HA, council, private renters. People talking over fences, on doorsteps, people getting on. Provided people want to engage - this works. It may sound corny but it does. It works in my street. But it is under threat in my street from the possible sell off of some HA property and the forced moving of tenants and by some of the new people who seem suspicious to mix.

This is a relatively transient area where a lot of people stay for a few years before moving on, some will never mix, others will make friends with everyone on the first weekend..

Is there any evidence of HAs or the council selling off individual houses in residential streets and decanting tenants elsewhere (as opposed to RTB)? I know they occasionally auction single houses that are in poor condition ( and thus considered too expensive to renovate), but good stock where a high capital gain could be realised? (down AK, this is about terraced houses, not blocks ). I understand the fear, but don't know if it's actually happening. Presumably council RTB is gradually shifting the balance towards private ownership of the terraces, so if HAs do actually flog off their stock (to move their tenants where?) the mix will change quite a lot.

 

[Gramsci]

And the Atlantic was - regardless of whether you personally happened to know someone behind the bar or not - one of the least welcoming pubs on earth. It gained a notorious reputation as a drug dealing den which might explain the complete lack of community outcry when it closed.

I used the Atlantic in the early 80s when I was first in Brixton.It was then run by Lloyd Leon who was also a local Councillor.It was OK then.I remember seeing Ted Knight in their as the Labour Group used it for meetings.It went downhill when Lloyd left.The new owner could not control it.I wasnt surpeised when the police closed it.Id stopped going there by then as there was to mcuh aggro going on in the pub.

The Dogstar was a Brixton Challenge "flagship project".It did cause a lot of genuine resentment amongst the Black community at the time.The old Atlantic was never touched in the riots.The first riot after it became the Dogstar it was trashed.That says something.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't know how to react to this, Gramsci. The idea that you sit in front of the telly fantasising about the execution of the urban middle classes beggars belief.

I can't see it being included in the unitary development plan in the near future.

Good idea Hendo-can AK put it on his list of new planning rules?

 

[editor]

It went downhill when Lloyd left.The new owner could not control it.I wasnt surpeised when the police closed it.Id stopped going there by then as there was to mcuh aggro going on in the pub.

Exactly. That confirms what people have told me and my own experiences.

I remember the resentment the original super-yuppie Dogstar created when it opened and wasn't surprised by it at all.

Incidentally, I was right outside the pub when it was firebombed and then looted in the riot. There were no police around on Coldharbour Lane and kids were going in and walking out with crates of beer and spirits.

Boy, was I tempted!

 

[hendo]

Good idea Hendo-can AK put it on his list of new planning rules?

It's a question of getting funding for all the guillotines and tumbrils, as well as site permission.
Intostella has offered to sit next to them and knit though.

 

[Gramsci]

In actual fact AKs idea is not that far fatched.Some Councils already do Equality Impact Assessment(EQIA)

Example here:

www.kingston.gov.uk/council_democracy/equalities/equality_impact_assessments.htm#what_is_an_eqia?

 

[Gramsci]

Or see here for Red Kens how to do Equality Assessments booklet:

www.london.gov.uk/gla/publications/equalities/eq_impact_assess.pdf

 

[Gramsci]

It's a question of getting funding for all the guillotines and tumbrils, as well as site permission.
Intostella has offered to sit next to them and knit though.

I dont think in the new future order namby pamby planning rules will be required.It will all get down by the "will of the people".

 

[Gramsci]

This is a relatively transient area where a lot of people stay for a few years before moving on, some will never mix, others will make friends with everyone on the first weekend..

You have said this before.I lived in Brixton area for a long time.Most of the people I know here have as well.My own personal experience is that a lot of people end up staying here for a lonf time.

 

[Gramsci]

But, I suspect that the more important truth is that the proportion of BME people on estates is rising whilst on the private roads it is falling. Couple that with the growing prosperity of people on the private roads and the prospects for an intergrated and harmonious community in Lambeth are looking less good all the time.

Lang Rabbies post on the Census 2001 backs up your observation.68% Black Carribeans and 71% Black Africans live in social housing.

 

[pooka]

Mixed streets are what you need

Yep - I agree.

Will try to track down the equivalent 1991 data if I can.

Hard to find in any sort of detail, but if anyone can, it'll be lang rabbie!

It went downhill when Lloyd left.The new owner could not control it

My understanding also. Incidentally, Lloyd was not just a councillor, he was Lambeth's only Black mayor.

It's a question of getting funding for all the guillotines and tumbrils, as well as site permission.

(hendo faces Anna Key at the Committee for Public Safety)

Lang Rabbies post on the Census 2001 backs up your observation.68% Black Carribeans and 71% Black

Not so, Mr BC was speaking about change - we won't know without the 1991 figures.

 

[lang rabbie]

Incidentally, Lloyd was not just a councillor, he was Lambeth's only Black mayor.

He was the first black mayor. Subsequently followed by Rudi Daley, Jo Singh, John Denny, Claudette Hewitt...

(and I'm sure that there was one other whose complicated cultural heritage would probably allow her to claim BME status - if she so wished)

 

[Gramsci]

I also agree with AK that planning plays has/can play a large role.Planning first started as a reaction to the rapid growth of Cities in the Industrial Revolution.From the very start,however, it was largely in the interests of those in power.Philanthropic housing was as much about controlling the new working class as improving their living conditions.

The high point for planning and urban development was after the second world war.A consensus developed that deprivation/urban problems etc could be cured by the right social research and "professional" intervention.This was the era of grand designs like Hollambys for Brixton.

Thatcher chucked all this in the bin.Though Heseltine never agreed with her urban policies IMO.It was "Market forces" and private entrepreneurs would save the inner cities.In fact they got a lot of perks as in the Docklands to build their shiny new future.

Planning and land use now tend get regarded as an somehow outside politics.Its considered "natural" that somewhere like Brixton which originally was a wealthy area is after an interval turning back that way."You cant buck the market."A new commonsense has developed.For all its patronising ways the old consensus did more to stop "Gentrification" or at least question its outcomes.

The liberal view still is that planning/land use could still be the province of professional planners and researchers.Gradual reform not revolution.Try and keep it from becoming to "political".They have been called the "Evangelistic Bureaucrat".The evengelism from the Victorian desire to cure social ills and the bureaucrat from the the idea that scientific rational management was needed.

So IMO you can trace the problem of "Gentrification"-by which I mean "market forces" rule back to Thatcherism.Its taken a while for it to work it way through Brixton but its happening-in historically a short time.

In fact land use/planning/cities are places of social conflict-sometimes obvious(Brixton riots) sometimes not(complaints about "style bars").

 

[pooka]

He was the first black mayor.

Quite so - poor use of English on my part.

In fact land use/planning/cities are places of social conflict-sometimes obvious(Brixton riots)

But the Brixton riots/Uprising were about policing, were they not?

 

[lang rabbie]

evangelistic bureaucrats

The liberal view still is that planning/land use could still be the province of professional planners and researchers.Gradual reform not revolution.Try and keep it from becoming to "political".They have been called the "Evangelistic Bureaucrat".The evengelism from the Victorian desire to cure social ills and the bureaucrat from the the idea that scientific rational management was needed.

Gramsci - that phrase comes from an academic study written over 30 years ago about planning in Newcastle. It has precious little to do with current attitudes. I know of precious few small-l liberals, and even fewer Liberal Democrats, who believe that the planning process should be less political.

Across the country Lib Dem councillors clutch at the few remaining straws of case-law that allow them to take heed of their constituent's concerns rather than being steered by central government "guidance" to accede to all of a developers' demands.

Some councils are so paranoid of legal challenge by developers because of claims that the council has "fettered its discretion", that they are refusing to allow ward councillors who have previously expressed their opposition to a scheme to speak out at the planning committee, even if they don't have a vote. I'm glad to say that networks of Lib Dem cllrs are resisting this sort of legalistic nonsense.

 

[Gramsci]

The issue of Race and Class,if I may put in a few thoughts here ,is complex.I agree that Race is an issue in Brixton and must have some connection with "Gentrification" of Brixton.And by the way Gentrification is not a term i find that helpful.Heres a quote,

"classes only exist within civil society-the form they take is given,first,by the current patterns of capital accumulation and relations between the functions of capital and labour;second by the forms of gender,age,racial,regional and national interpellations within civil society;and third by the forms of political organisation and state apparatuses.There are no pure classes determined economically-capitalist relations,with a particular division of antagonistic functions of capital and labour,are manifest within civil society."

There are also bases of social conflict and struggle that are not directly determined by the relations of production.Civil society can throw up a diversity of groups around which struggle can be mobilized.As in Brixton the "Boho" contigent.

"Popular-Democratic struggles involve the organisation of "the people" in terms of race,gender,place of residence etc.This can interact with class stuggle.

( Laclau /Althusser)

 

[pooka]

I guess that may have lost something in translation, but could you just give us the gist, Gramsci?

Then again:

Althusser, Louis (1918-1990)

Born 1918 in Algiers; Joined the Communist Party in Paris in 1948. Althusser murdered his wife in 1980, and was confined to an asylum till his death in 1990.

Poor woman, if she had to listen to that stuff over breakfast, must have been a welcome release.

Generally speaking, Laclau deals with postmodernity from a positive viewpoint. As for him, postmodernity can manifest its radical contingence to challenge the foundations of modernity. That is to say, postmodernity focuses on anti-foundationalism and it attempts to weaken the logic of the construction between social and cultural identities.

Well, he'd go down a storm at the Beehive

 

[newbie]

You have said this before.I lived in Brixton area for a long time.Most of the people I know here have as well.My own personal experience is that a lot of people end up staying here for a lonf time.

Most of the people I know who live around here have done so for a long time. That's true. But the vast majority of the people I have known who lived around here no longer do so. Does that make sense? They lived here for a while but then moved away.

Planning and land use now tend get regarded as an somehow outside politics.Its considered "natural" that somewhere like Brixton which originally was a wealthy area is after an interval turning back that way."You cant buck the market."A new commonsense has developed.For all its patronising ways the old consensus did more to stop "Gentrification" or at least question its outcomes.

Did it? Once large parts of Chelsea were working class, poor and rundown. Even after the Swinging 60s era the Kings Road was full of tatty shops and cheap, crumbling flats. Fashionability transformed it into a very rich area at around the same time as slum areas, including parts of Brixton, were being CPO'd to turn into massive housing projects. For poor areas the 60s & early 70s were indeed an era of grand designs, with all the consequential social disruption and blight that meant, as people like Hollamby imposed their ghastly vision.

It's perfectly true that pre-Thatcher planning was not geared towards private ownership, but granting megalomaniac planners (however well intentioned) the power to rip communities to pieces was hardly any better. Post-Thatcher market economics may erode social networks but it doesn't tend to nuke them.

Gentrification in 2004 could probably have been prevented by tearing the heart out of Brixton in 1978 and turning the place into another Aylesbury or North Peckham estate. But grand designs like those were rightly rejected and discredited, so incredibly rundown buildings like the block on Brixton Road where the Registry Office is, or a smaller block on Clapham Park Rroad, had their worth recognised and were renovated rather than being demolished. That started the

It wasn't apparent then that decades later areas that retained their mixed old buildings would be seen as charming heritage, ripe for gentrification. Nor was it apparent that the grand visons, however egalitarian their impetus, would soon turn to tarnished concrete jungles that will never be particularly popular.

 

[TeeJay]

The problem is that people have children. Those children grow up and, not unnaturally, want to continue living near their parents. They can't afford to buy a home, because prices have rocketed. They can't afford a privately rented property, for the same reason. They can't get a council property because there aren't enough to go around. Consequently, they have to move away. This, manifestly, undermines communities and, equally manifestly, is a consequence of 'gentrification'.

The several (so-called) "black" people in Brixton that I have spoken to about this issue have all said that they have sold up their properties in Brixton and moved further to places like West Norwood and Streatham because they wanted a better place for their kids to grow up, they were taking advantage of the increase in value of their Brixton properties to get somewhere nicer and quieter. Why did so many people of 'african and carribbean' heritage choose to live in or near Brixton in the first place? It is necessarily a bad thing if these people move to other areas? Surely the character of a place resides in the people and all that will happen if Brixton becomes more gentrified is that other places with become more Brixton-ified? Maybe people can move to the "new Brixton" if they want to follow the "vibe"? They will probably save money on rent at the same time, although they might have to go back to using buses or overland trains rather than the tube.

 

[hatboy]

I used the Atlantic in the early 80s when I was first in Brixton.It was then run by Lloyd Leon who was also a local Councillor.It was OK then.I remember seeing Ted Knight in their as the Labour Group used it for meetings.It went downhill when Lloyd left.The new owner could not control it.I wasnt surpeised when the police closed it.Id stopped going there by then as there was to mcuh aggro going on in the pub.

The Dogstar was a Brixton Challenge "flagship project". It did cause a lot of genuine resentment amongst the Black community at the time.The old Atlantic was never touched in the riots.The first riot after it became the Dogstar it was trashed.That says something.

You see editor. It was OK and it was missed. Not everyone bothers with petitions. Even after Lloyd (who moved to Mingles by the way I think, not there now - hard to remember it all) some still enjoyed it and me and certain mates went in around that time. I liked it, maybe I'm less affected by perceived (or real) "aggro" in some of Brixton's blacker pubs. You didn't like it. The end.

 

[editor]

You see editor. It was OK and it was missed. Not everyone bothers with petitions. Even after Lloyd (who moved to Mingles by the way I think, not there now - hard to remember it all) some still enjoyed it and me certain mates went in around that time. I liked it, despite the "aggro" you didn't. The end.

Fuck me: what an amazing twist on Gramsci's words!

Clearly you must have failed to read them correctly, so here they are for your benefit once again:

It went downhill when Lloyd left.The new owner could not control it. I wasn't surprised when the police closed it. I'd stopped going there by then as there was too much aggro going on in the pub.

You personally may have found the place welcoming you with open arms, but I know a lot of open-minded, easy going people who got quite the opposite reaction - myself included.

I have already acknowledged the Atlantic's part in Brixton black history, but by the early 1990s it has become a thoroughly unpleasant and unwelcoming place, and I wasn't surprised that it got closed down - or that no one seemed particularly bothered by its overdue demise (but I can remember the outrage when the yuppie Dogstar replaced it)

Still, I can't be bothered with all this rose tinted stuff.

My memory's just fine and if someone's trying to tell me that the Coach and Horses and the Atlantic were great, inclusive, friendly, vibrant community pubs in the early 90s, I'll prefer to stick with what I know, thanks.

 

[editor]

... maybe I'm less affected by perceived (or real) "aggro" in some of Brixton's blacker pubs.

I've no idea what that's supposed to mean, although - and I could be wrong - there seems to be a rather unpleasant racist slur lurking in there somewhere.

I'm more than used to drinking in 'blacker pubs' thanks, but I go the pub for a laugh, not to be stared at or made to feel uncomfortable, by people of any colour, shade or background.

 

[hatboy]

You still don't get it do you. I'm not interested in "rose tinted". I am not denying Gramsci's comments.

But I (me OK ,not you) liked it sometimes. As I said on another thread. Some types of so-called "aggro" don't trouble me. I also really like reggae and the loud-talking, straight-talking, straight-forward attitude in some of the majority-black pubs that play it.

The fact that the Atlantic went downhill, does not alter the fact that the police have their own agenda and like these places gone.

PS your quote of me is slightly wrong cos I was editing my comment while you were posting yours.

 

[editor]

I also really like reggae and the loud-talking, straight-talking, straight-forward attitude in some of the majority-black pubs that play it.

If the Atlantic had stayed open with the same kind of management, I doubt very much if they'd still be playing reggae all the time, ten years on.

Look, I'm sure you may have had a great time there, but people change, tastes change, fashions come and go and things move on and I really don't see the point of eulogising a long-dead boozer whose time had come up years ago.