White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Citizen66]

Oh jesus christ almighty, it just got WORSE. Now her secret modelling pics have been released. . .

http://nypost.com/2015/06/16/black-or-white-no-doubt-rachel-dolezals-photos-are-red-hot/

Posing for a photo. We're all guilty now.

 

[Treacle Toes]

But ironically enough, we're still kind of stuck with the racial categories that the wacko 'race academics' used in the 19th century.

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!

I'm doing my best to wade my way out of it.

ETA:

To be serious though, we are kind of stuck with certain categories because we need to have a shared language. It can be tricky.

 

[8ball]

This does, however, depend entirely on which of the multiple meanings given to the term"race" is being used.

Yes, and we've been jumping between them plenty on this thread. I think we're mostly not confusing each other, though.

Of course even the pharma industry acknowledges that "racial response" to medications is a blunt instrument. IIRC there was a heart drug introduced in the late '90s that worked better in trials on African-Americans than on Euro-ancestry Americans, but it didn't work better "across the board" of Afro-Americans. It wasn't a "racial response" so much as a "subset of populations with African ancestry response", the two things being quite different, as your point about the vast sweep of human biodiversity makes clear.

Yes. 'Race' in this sense being like a deficient filter that on,y shows a limited facet of the underlying variability. We are effectivlely using ancient 'folk wisdom' to inform what should be a much more rigorous field.

 

[8ball]

I first heard of this last year. It's extraordinary really. The scientists involved must know that what they're doing isn't justified by the science.

In a few cases it can be, but I think a big factor actually comes down to separating populations by their ability to pay for new treatments.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, obviously there is. It's just that certain genetically determined traits are used as race markers while others aren't - and that's culturally determined. Lots of parts of the world have differences regionally due to nothing more than genetic drift. So you get a characteristic 'look' for large numbers of people from a particular area. There is a Scottish 'look' for instance that you see in a lot of Scots, due no doubt to nothing more than genetic drift, but probably just as genetically significant as other regional differences that get marked down as racial markers.

In our culture, we're still stuck in the shit of past racist (white, European mostly) racial theories. I reckon we'll get beyond that in a few generations' time, but only a couple of years ago I was translating a Spanish-language children's encyclopaedia in which it was stated that the black skin of Aboriginal Australians showed that they were related to Africans. My jaw hit the floor, and I'm sure it was just an ignorant non-scientist who wrote that, but still, certain racist racial assumptions are there, held no doubt often unconsciously.

Surely having darker skin is just an adaptation to the climate? Bit awful and so unfair that something like that has been used to oppress so many people

 

[Treacle Toes]

In a few cases it can be, but I think a big factor actually comes down to separating populations by their ability to pay for new treatments.

Well, we'd be fools not to acknowledge that about the 'system'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely having darker skin is just an adaptation to the climate?

Sure, but there can be other markers. An Algerian, say, might have skin roughly the same colour as that of a southern Italian, but they'll be categorised as part of different races by most people due to other differences.

 

[BlackArab]

I am concerned about the psychological and emotional safety of her children.

Me too, I cannot imagine what they are going through and will do for a very long time.

 

[BlackArab]

She's been interviewed by Melissa Harris Perry (there may be a link to the full interview by now). I'd like her to be interviewed by Bonnie Greer or Alice Walker or (bit difficult, since he's dead) James Baldwin

or Professor Griff

 

[frogwoman]

Sure, but there can be other markers. An Algerian, say, might have skin roughly the same colour as that of a southern Italian, but they'll be categorised as part of different races by most people due to other differences.

Well yeah, doesnt mean theyre part of the same 'race'

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well yeah, doesnt mean theyre part of the same 'ethnicities'

FIFY

 

[eatmorecheese]

I haven't commented on this thread as yet, nothing to add but to acknowledge the deeply damaging car crash this whole affair is proving to be.

One of the best threads in ages, thank you all for the contributions, real food for thought.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well yeah, doesnt mean theyre part of the same 'race'

Although it could, if you wanted it to, such is the arbitrary nature of the division of races.

 

[equationgirl]

maybe not everything she says is a lie

True, but given more and more lies emerge with each passing day it's hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt and believe what they say.

She's broken the trust of many, many people.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

True, but given more and more lies emerge with each passing day it's hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt and believe what they say.

She's broken the trust of many, many people.

Best to assume she is lying until proven otherwise, I would have thought. tbh I don't actually care what she says now. I'm still on this thread as it's been interesting, but RD herself isn't interesting to me now.

 

[8ball]

Surely having darker skin is just an adaptation to the climate? Bit awful and so unfair that something like that has been used to oppress so many people

Partly, sort of. Though it was was white people that became white rather than the converse, possibly partly an adaptation to produce more vitamin D where both sunlight was inadequate for natural production and the diet was not making up for it.

There's more variation than you might expect when you compare a human population's latitude of habitation vs. skin tone vs. how long they have lived in a region. Diet being a factor that partly explains things, but not completely.

I will defer to anyone whose training in the area of human genetics originates in the current millennium.

 

[8ball]

FIFY

I tend to think, prob coz of academic background, of ethnicity being a matter of common ancestral cultural experience, and 'race' being a human construct overlaid on a subset of human biodiversity markers that associate strongly with identifiable visual markers.

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm not sure I'd have much more sympathy if she had gone for something a little more nuanced

She'd still be appropriating stories that are not hers. A great feature of white supremacy: no matter what you do/say it will use it to advance itself.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'race' being a human construct overlaid on a subset of human biodiversity markers that associate strongly with identifiable visual markers.

That's as good a definition of 'race' as I've seen, I think, although I'd add 'certain' before 'identifiable' as there are many easily identifiable visual markers that are not used to define any given race due to the history behind the forming of the construct, which has formed fundamentally, it seems to me, to provide some kind of visual corrollary for ethnicity.

I don't think there is a sharp boundary between the concepts of ethnicity and race. Both are rather poorly defined, and their fuzziness overlaps.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But ironically enough, we're still kind of stuck with the racial categories that the wacko 'race academics' used in the 19th century.

True, and not because they have any innate meaning vis a vis actually defining what "race" is, but because they have some limited utility as categories to separate populations (even though effectively every population is constantly exposed to new waves of hybridity).

 

[MochaSoul]

Yeah, I understand this. It just seems like adding a few pebbles to what is already a landslide of shittiness.

The pebbles are already there and she used them strategically. An example as an aside, you'd not think it but religiousness has been pointed out to me as a mark of blackness. Me, an unbeliever, before I came before the word for it ("ateia" in Portuguese) whose reaction to it was "Wow! If there's a word for it, I can't be the only one" only to later being questioned about it by groups of white people calling themselves humanists on one side and by people who relate to me by skin colour (because a black non-believer is akin to a betrayal of Martin Luther King). Surreal is the trip.

 

[Wilf]

True, but given more and more lies emerge with each passing day it's hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt and believe what they say.

She's broken the trust of many, many people.

I'd remain as critical as everyone else on this thread about her public role, the way she played out her ethnicity lie amid the real politics and inequalities of America. In the middle of that there was an even more squalid opportunism - she's white when taking action against a university, but black when there's a career in it. And yes, every new twist makes it difficult to believe her on anything. Which makes it difficult when she alleges domestic violence against her ex husband. Should she have the same right to be believed - in the absence of counter evidence - as other dv victims, particularly as her foster brother has supported her in the claim? Probably, yes. Well, that's just yes. And then there's a toxic family background, 'missionaries', playing out still in abuse cases. Not sure what I'm saying really, just the difficulties of watching something emerge on the internet. The difficulties of not letting my lack of personal and political (lack of) sympathy for her run away into complete disbelief. Suppose really it's something I've been watching avidly since the story came out a few days ago (been off work ill so spent more time on it than I would normally), but it's got to the point now where it feels a bit grubby knowing any more about her family stuff. Maybe it was also the modelling photographer deciding to get his 15 seconds of fame on the back of her 15 minutes.

EQG - that wasn't aimed at you (or anybody else), just happened to get pinned onto your post. I was astounded and angry about her personal-political game, which went into overdrive when she started hiring a PR team. It's just with all the abuse stuff and family members lining up against each other, I wish I hadn't watched it.

 

[8ball]

She'd still be appropriating stories that are not hers. A great feature of white supremacy: no matter what you do/say it will use it to advance itself.

I see this as more a case of one of the logical conclusions of atomised identity politics rather than anything to do with white supremacy. She has found a system ripe for milking and has worked it for all it is worth.

 

[8ball]

The pebbles are already there and she used them strategically. An example as an aside, you'd not think it but religiousness has been pointed out to me as a mark of blackness. Me, an unbeliever, before I came before the word for it ("ateia" in Portuguese) whose reaction to it was "Wow! If there's a word for it, I can't be the only one" only to later being questioned about it by groups of white people calling themselves humanists on one side and by people who relate to me by skin colour (because a black non-believer is akin to a betrayal of Martin Luther King). Surreal is the trip.

It's probably me (bit tired), but while I understand what you're talking about in terms of the connection with religiosity, I don't see how it relates to the issue about her adherence to a simplistic popular binary notion of race.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

She'd still be appropriating stories that are not hers. A great feature of white supremacy: no matter what you do/say it will use it to advance itself.

Is she part of some greater 'white' movement or trend? Isn't there a danger when you start talking of 'this is how white people act' (if that's what you mean) that you end up falling down the same rabbit hole as she did?

tbh I'm not sure she's that interesting to be 'credited' with such things. I think I know what you mean here (not sure though) in terms of white people arrogantly making light of matters to do with race, but there's a danger of being unhelpfully divisive, no?

 

[BlackArab]

Aye fair enough . It's just that back in the early 90s a close relative of mine ended up in the states working as an illegal immigrant . The guy was solidly anti racist, not just non racist ..very much a red action type mentality towards it . He was actually looking forward to meeting black people and learning a bit .
But sadly to say in the area he was in he encountered nothing but unremitting hostility from black people . He worked in a shop and no matter whether it was young or old, male or female all he got was the evils . And to his own dismay he found himself becoming almost racist internally . Whenever a black person came in he found himself instinctively adopting a cynical and even semi aggressive posture in response to theirs . Before theyd even done anything even . Simply out of self preservation and a determination not to be intimidated . He truly hated it but he found himself doing it . I'm not trying for a minute to say that's what black people are like...this must have been a particularly tense area or something .. but there's a major issue there that's rarely addressed or fully acknowledged .

And he was only there temporarily . I've often wondered what that must be like for say working class white kids who encounter it regularly in their districts , schools and the like .How does that affect their attitudes . Where do they turn for positive affirmation ? To a left that won't acknowledge it..or might even condone it in some cases ?

I'm not trying either to say black racism is the cause of white racism . But I think it's a bigger factor in some cases of white negativity than its acknowledged . America strikes me as a truly fucked up place .

'all he got was the evils' was that it? Not having a go but imagine if the situation was reversed do you think the most he would have encountered was hostile looks? I hope he had the chance to experience different areas, America is no more or less fucked up than Britain and this type of story is common enough here.

 

[MochaSoul]

I think over playing racial differences is a very dangerous road to.go down

And yet, that exactly the road this woman has taken and the worst for it because she's, by example and by inference, teaching her poor mites that race is all on the surface and features on the surface, are the sum total of what a human being is worth.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'all he got was the evils' was that it? Not having a go but imagine if the situation was reversed do you think the most he would have encountered was hostile looks? I hope he had the chance to experience different areas, America is no more or less fucked up than Britain and this type of story is common enough here.

Yeah, this wasn't my experience. I also worked in the US as an illegal immigrant many years ago, across many parts of the southern states. The US is a big place, and things will be different in different parts, clearly, but I was in areas where the open racism of white people was staggering. My experience with most black people there was that, once I'd made it clear I wasn't American, they were not hostile at all, or at least hostility lessened (broad generalisation here) which was itself rather remarkable given the shit they took on a daily basis from white Americans.

Anecdata!

 

[MochaSoul]

Let's narrow it down...she should, in her position, know better! With all she 'knows', has 'fought' against? How can I take her seriously? She clearly isn't taking me seriously with all those lies and manipulations.

Clearly, knowing something in academic terms is a completely different to living the experience of that something. But she will persist in claiming the "blackness experience" vacuous as such a claim is against her repertoire.