White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Sea Star]

Glad to see the debate going back to what it's actually about. One my first thoughts about what RD's done was what will be the impact on mixed race people. It's not rare to see them excluded by two extremes

I think the fact that some people were comparing her experience to the transgender experience means that my posts were also what the debate is "actually about".

 

[MochaSoul]

I think the fact that some people were comparing her experience to the transgender experience means that my posts were also what the debate is "actually about".

And if you've read the entire thread and not just the bits that (unwittingly or otherwise) construed an attack on the veracity of the transgender experience you will have noted many have already argued for the spurious nature of the comparison. Some people like Rutita1 have indeed been tireless on that front.

 

[Belushi]

 

[Sea Star]

And if you've read the entire thread and not just the bits that (unwittingly or otherwise) construed an attack on the veracity of the transgender experience you will have noted many have already argued for the spurious nature of the comparison. Some people like Rutita1 have indeed been tireless on that front.

So i cant speak for myself? I have to let others speak on my behalf?

Your cis privilege is showing

 

[Treacle Toes]

So i cant speak for myself? I have to let others speak on my behalf?

Eh? I was not speaking on your behalf and nor do I think that's what Mocha meant?

 

[Casually Red]

Certainly a twat with some of the things he said, having now heard the clip all the way through. I was just taken by his line of outright derision, which should be part of how we react to the case.

Honestly wilf , not having a go at you here . Despite our occasional jousting I think your a good poster generally . But that guy was a particularly vile racist and some of the stuff he was spouting was completely unacceptable . It really boils my piss when scumbags like that get a pass because of their colour . I also feel letting it slide..when it's seriously vile man..is evidence of a certain condescension towards blacks . If we truly accept in ourselves that black people aren't an " other " but just as vital, valid and important human beings as whites then equal weight should be applied to racism coming from a black as a white . Otherwise in my view it's like ascribing a childlike status to black people . Letting stuff go that we wouldn't tolerate for a second in whites. To me that's both unhealthy and wrong .

Not having a go at you but making a more general point that I'm disappointed not a single person on this thread showed a bit of outrage or disgust at a man coming out with quite nasty race hatred . Claiming a race of people like to engage in simultaneous bestiality and incest, have no culture etc..fucking hell like . When poor Winifred was getting pulled up for saying " aping " , when everyone knew he had absolutely no racist intent . There's no such thing as reverse racism , just racism and race hatred . From wherever and whoever it emanates . And people like that are a major part of the overall problem in my view .

 

[Sea Star]

I

Eh? I was not speaking on your behalf and nor do I think that's what mocha meant?

In which case why am i being told i cant speak for myself?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I

In which case why am i being told i cant speak for myself?

Is that what you are being told? The way I read it you were being reminded that others including yourself, had already made similar points, me being one of them.

 

[Pickman's model]

So i cant speak for myself? I have to let others speak on my behalf?

Your cis privilege is showing

yeh but that's not what MochaSoul is saying, as you'll see if you read the post.

 

[Sea Star]

i know being a trans woman makes me a political football and / or an inconvenient trutb, but i honestly thought my viewpoint had some relevance here. Clearly it doesnt and i dont want to fall out with people so im ducking out of rhis debate now.

 

[Treacle Toes]

i know being a trans woman makes me a political football and / or an inconvenient trutb, but i honestly thought my viewpoint had some relevance here. Clearly it doesnt and i dont want to fall out with people so im ducking out of rhis debate now.

No, Stella. That is not what is happening here and it's unfair of you to characterise what has been said to you here as that because to do so you are ascribing motive.

Your point of view has been acknowledged and engaged with, some of us agree with you, you are not being dismissed.

 

[Sea Star]

Is that what you are being told? The way I read it you were being reminded that others including yourself, had already made similar points, me being one of them.

Ok - i dont want to piss people off more than i have. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Pickman's model]

i know being a trans woman makes me a political football and / or an inconvenient trutb, but i honestly thought my viewpoint had some relevance here. Clearly it doesnt and i dont want to fall out with people so im ducking out of rhis debate now.

no one's saying that what you were saying didn't have some relevance here. but you seem determined to misconstrue what people were saying so that's probably for the best.

 

[MochaSoul]

You know what, AuntiStella ? I don't really care. If you actually care to peruse the thread in its entirety you will have seen what I have myself said n the subject. Don't go thinking that you can somehow pin me against a wall by merely alluding to my espousing what I don't, in reality, even believe.

 

[Sea Star]

You know what, AuntiStella ? I don't really care. If you actually care to peruse the thread in its entirety you will have seen what I have myself said n the subject. Don't go thinking that you can somehow pin me against a wall by merely alluding to my espousing what I don't, in reality, even believe.

Wow!! You saw all that in what i wrote?

I meant no harm. I was trying to express myself is all

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think most of us agree on all the important bits here.

But furious agreement is what Urban does best.

 

[Santino]

I think most of us agree on all the important bits here.

But furious agreement is what Urban does best.

no you are

 

[Pickman's model]

I think most of us agree on all the important bits here.

But furious agreement is what Urban does best.

by no means. violent disagreement on the most trivial matters is what urban does best: i refer you to cheese then beans v. beans then cheese.

 

[MochaSoul]

So i cant speak for myself? I have to let others speak on my behalf?

Your cis privilege is showing

Of course, it's going to show. My very awareness of the fact that some people have a disconnect between what nature gives them and what goes on in their brain is recent. I wasn't brought up, like my son is, to allow for that kind of difference. But then I wasn't brought up to allow for many other differences. It was even difficult to allow for my own differences and they go far beyond a lot that is usually talked about in places like this.

You expect me to feel ashamed because you point out my holding of some things as obvious? Well, I don't. You know why? For the same reason, I don't go shouting racist at everyone who calls me "articulate" (even as I know that I am).

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course, it's going to show. My very awareness of the fact that some people have a disconnect between what nature gives them and what goes on in their brain is recent. I wasn't brought up, like my son is, to allow for that kind of difference. But then I wasn't brought up to allow for many other differences. It was even difficult to allow for my own differences and they go far beyond a lot that is usually talked about in places like this.

You expect me to feel ashamed because you point out my holding of some things as obvious? Well, I don't. You know why? For the same reason, I don't go shouting racist at everyone who calls me "articulate" (even as I know that I am).

*goes off to see what nonsense articul8 has been up to*

 

[Sea Star]

Of course, it's going to show. My very awareness of the fact that some people have a disconnect between what nature gives them and what goes on in their brain is recent. I wasn't brought up, like my son is, to allow for that kind of difference. But then I wasn't brought up to allow for many other differences. It was even difficult to allow for my own differences and they go far beyond a lot that is usually talked about in places like this.

You expect me to feel ashamed because you point out my holding of some things as obvious? Well, I don't. You know why? For the same reason, I don't go shouting racist at everyone who calls me "articulate" (even as I know that I am).

Its been a big learning curve for me - i knew nothing about trans as recently as two years ago. I realsied i was trans and then tried to learn about it.
Hope we can be friends - never meant to piss you or anyone else off.

 

[Treacle Toes]

A great little radio interview....The guest, nails it IMO:

http://www.npr.org/2015/06/16/41498...ks-questions-about-how-people-experience-race

Transcript there too if you prefer to read also

Two important points:

CORNISH: Khadijah, does it sound less flexible to you when you hear people describing their experiences, and can the experiences that Rachel Dolezal talked about in terms of raising sons who are black - does that contribute to her argument?

WHITE: No. I would say that everything I've heard from Rachel in terms of her expressing how she understands her blackness has been located quite essentially in the midst of exotification. She's admired black culture, that she thinks it's beautiful. I mean, these are direct quotes. And when we talk about identity, we're talking about - Storehall (ph) is a famous theorist. He talks about it as the ways in which we speak of ourselves and our own experiences from a particular place and time, that it's about context. And she's lied repeatedly about her experiences. She's lied repeatedly about her identity. She's lied repeatedly about her past, her heritage, her family. And so in giving that lie, she's placed herself as a white woman as an authority on blackness. She's spoken as an authority on blackness, and that's, in every way, a betrayal of the community that she says she's a part of.

CORNISH: Given this discussion, there's also been parallels drawn around the idea of trans-racial - using this term - and somehow comparing it to the idea of being transgender. And I want to get your response first, Khadijah, to this parallel. Does it make any sense to you? How are you feeling about it?

WHITE: I think for some people who don't understand transgender identity, it seems parallel that someone is kind of changing an identity that other people had known them as and taking on a new one. But really, if you think about this particular case and even the way that race works, it's a really pernicious idea that trans people are fundamentally dishonest and untrustworthy. And that kind of idea fuels trans-phobia and the disproportional violence that transgender people endure. Transgender people are not trying to lie to the world and deceive them about who they are, and that's exactly what Rachel Dolezal has done in order to construct this idea that she's black.

 

[MochaSoul]

Its been a big learning curve for me - i knew nothing about trans as recently as two years ago. I realsied i was trans and then tried to learn about it.
Hope we can be friends - never meant to piss you or anyone else off.

One thing I have learned from my own learning curve is not to hold grudges.
Yes, of course we can be friends. Our disagreement so far, the way I see it, is one more of approach than actual ideology... and who says friends can't/shouldn't disagree? I don't like automata for friends. I get pissed off nowadays that disagreement is such a boo hoo no no. I get pissed off now, I see through the other approach later. It's all in the learning curve.

 

[Wilf]

Honestly wilf , not having a go at you here . Despite our occasional jousting I think your a good poster generally . But that guy was a particularly vile racist and some of the stuff he was spouting was completely unacceptable . It really boils my piss when scumbags like that get a pass because of their colour . I also feel letting it slide..when it's seriously vile man..is evidence of a certain condescension towards blacks . If we truly accept in ourselves that black people aren't an " other " but just as vital, valid and important human beings as whites then equal weight should be applied to racism coming from a black as a white . Otherwise in my view it's like ascribing a childlike status to black people . Letting stuff go that we wouldn't tolerate for a second in whites. To me that's both unhealthy and wrong .

Not having a go at you but making a more general point that I'm disappointed not a single person on this thread showed a bit of outrage or disgust at a man coming out with quite nasty race hatred . Claiming a race of people like to engage in simultaneous bestiality and incest, have no culture etc..fucking hell like . When poor Winifred was getting pulled up for saying " aping " , when everyone knew he had absolutely no racist intent . There's no such thing as reverse racism , just racism and race hatred . From wherever and whoever it emanates . And people like that are a major part of the overall problem in my view .

That's fair enough, probably was ill advised on my part - mea culpa. I took his reference to fucking dogs and cousins as an attempt at inverting racist characterisations - dodgy on his part and so dodgy on mine. However the bit I'd take you up on, whether it's aimed at me or not, is that posting such stuff is ascribing 'childlike status'. I came across his clip on youtube by accident and simply thought his outright derision was a healthy response and amusing. I really would be a twat if I was giving him a free pass or anything like that on grounds of his ethnicity. To be honest I viewed in the same spirit as I'd view a Frankie Boyle video. Anyway, I'll admit I shouldn't have posted it.

 

[equationgirl]

Yours "The Unbearable Whiteness of Being" was especially good. There I was thinking of how much lighter my life would have been without my having to stand up for my own person regardless (hence my suggestion) and you throw the subject into its actual light.

Why thank you, most kind obviously to say so.

As I constructed it, I thought it was quite apt.

 

[Casually Red]

I disagree with everybody about most things . Only a handful of twats ever hold a grudge over it though .

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm disappointed not a single person on this thread showed a bit of outrage or disgust at a man coming out with quite nasty race hatred .

Hey... I did not make a great hoo haa about it but I did point out the exclusionary nature of the guy's rant and I even illustrated it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not having a go at you but making a more general point that I'm disappointed not a single person on this thread showed a bit of outrage or disgust at a man coming out with quite nasty race hatred ..

You did, no?

I didn't watch it. Not sure you can read too much into silence on here about any particular post.

 

[Casually Red]

That's fair enough, probably was ill advised on my part - mea culpa. I took his reference to fucking dogs and cousins as an attempt at inverting racist characterisations - dodgy on his part and so dodgy on mine. However the bit I'd take you up on, whether it's aimed at me or not, is that posting such stuff is ascribing 'childlike status'. I came across his clip on youtube by accident and simply thought his outright derision was a healthy response and amusing. I really would be a twat if I was giving him a free pass or anything like that on grounds of his ethnicity. To be honest I viewed in the same spirit as I'd view a Frankie Boyle video. Anyway, I'll admit I shouldn't have posted it.

Aye fair enough . It's just that back in the early 90s a close relative of mine ended up in the states working as an illegal immigrant . The guy was solidly anti racist, not just non racist ..very much a red action type mentality towards it . He was actually looking forward to meeting black people and learning a bit .
But sadly to say in the area he was in he encountered nothing but unremitting hostility from black people . He worked in a shop and no matter whether it was young or old, male or female all he got was the evils . And to his own dismay he found himself becoming almost racist internally . Whenever a black person came in he found himself instinctively adopting a cynical and even semi aggressive posture in response to theirs . Before theyd even done anything even . Simply out of self preservation and a determination not to be intimidated . He truly hated it but he found himself doing it . I'm not trying for a minute to say that's what black people are like...this must have been a particularly tense area or something .. but there's a major issue there that's rarely addressed or fully acknowledged .

And he was only there temporarily . I've often wondered what that must be like for say working class white kids who encounter it regularly in their districts , schools and the like .How does that affect their attitudes . Where do they turn for positive affirmation ? To a left that won't acknowledge it..or might even condone it in some cases ?

I'm not trying either to say black racism is the cause of white racism . But I think it's a bigger factor in some cases of white negativity than its acknowledged . America strikes me as a truly fucked up place .

 

[Casually Red]

You did, no?

I didn't watch it. Not sure you can read too much into silence on here about any particular post.

You could be right I suppose .