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White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

Still can't believe anyone is actually tolerating this nonsense and making excuses for it . Bloody mugs .

If someone got up in the morning and started identifying as a a horse the same mugs would be..." we'll you know, it's just a social construct...who are we to tell him he's not a horse ..and horses SHOULD have rights too."

Bloody ridiculous .
 
Maybe she thought that if she could not win a discrimination case being white she would try and win one being black?

Fuck me what did she expect would be the outcome of being part of the prosecution against her own brother? As a professor she must have realised that this was not such a good idea & someone might just mention it.
 
Surely that should be 'common to some Southeast Asian people'. Without that qualifier I think you are running the risk of doing exactly what you're trying to argue against.
I posted up "very common within East Asian and Southeast Asian people". I wouldn't agree to saying some, as I don't believe that's the case. I also don't believe that I'm perpetuating some sort of stereotype. Of course, I could be wrong - but then I'm not going to shy away from my own personal observations just because it runs the risk of offending people. In any case, it's widely documented that epicanthic folds are associated with a high proportion of people from an East / South Asian heritage. Also, what was it that you were referring to re: my "doing exactly what you're trying to argue against"?

You keep on about trying to understand her motivations for what she did. This isn't a single instance of a misunderstanding that went uncorrected, this is several months (at the least) of co-opting the experiences of black women for her own advantages.
She took personal responsibility by tendering her resignation, but then you could argue this was inevitable given that her position was untenable. Also, she has yet to answer for her actions, and we'll hopefully be able to get her side of the story at some point soon.

Whatever her motivations her actions have caused damage in the community. She has yet to take any personal responsibility for what she has done. Is that really how a decent community behaves, by being dishonest to the community they claim to represent?
Some politicians do this all the time and with impunity, which (again) is not my way of excusing what this woman has done.

Hopefully, the truth will out - and then we can make our final judgements on the actions that this woman took to portray herself as being 'black'.
 
Yes, I understand how people feel aggrieved that this woman was effectively trying to 'talk the talk, but without having actually 'walked the walk'. It basically serves as an affront to those who have experienced real discrimination and prejudice, but who would not be able to revert back to the white ideal (as she can), by virtue of having a fixed racial identity/outward appearance. I get that.

However, I still have it in the back of my mind that perhaps her lies weren't maliciously constructed as a means to disempower black people from having their own voice, but as a means to genuinely align herself with the black struggle in America.

You don't genuinely align yourself to anything by being a chronic ,attention seeking mendacious bullshitter . And even if what you are saying was true it's effect on anyone, black or white, who takes exception to this utterly patronising , toe curling ultra liberal line of garbage is to form the opinion these civil rights type people tend be a complete bunch of assholes and not worth listening to . That they're a joke, a laughing stock . The right wing stereotypes are just amplified ten times over . As if the intersectionalism wasn't bad enough now it plumbs new depths .
While racism plays a role in social relations so too does basic self awareness , which is something that's extremely important to anyone wishing to be taken seriously. It seems in very short supply in certain quarters . You seem utterly oblivious to the very obvious shot in the arm this idiot , as well as justifications like your own , give to hatemongers who promote " white pride " . She's a poster girl for them now . An absolute gift .
 
Yeah, and that the companies who make them haven't been hounded out of existence.

It's the attitude that people should be ashamed of their colour needs hounding out of existence more than the companies , otherwise people will just resort to even more horrible home made alternatives . It's another reason why justifying this idiots actions is so stupid . It cuts both ways .
 
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Employing cosmetic procedures such as skin whitening products doesn't necessarily mean that a person is trying to be 'white'. Much in the same way that a black person straightening their hair or dyeing it blonde doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to be 'white'.

So, whether this woman was changing her appearance for insincere and/or malicious reasons remains to be seen; but it's incorrect to liken what she did to somebody 'blacking up' as a minstrel or a person 'blacking up' and wearing an afro. Clearly, the latter examples point towards an obvious portrayal of a racial caricature, and are therefore insincere portrayals.

No it's not for me to judge. It's down to the individual who chooses to adopt such an appearance, to decide on whether they're doing it for sincere and honest reasons.

Many black women prefer to have their hair straightened , and spend a lot of time and trouble on it. She just HAD to choose curly . For effect . It was a caricature . Not about feeling black or thinking she was black but simply to LOOK as stereotypically black as possible . Like a cartoon
 
I posted up "very common within East Asian and Southeast Asian people". I wouldn't agree to saying some, as I don't believe that's the case. I also don't believe that I'm perpetuating some sort of stereotype. Of course, I could be wrong - but then I'm not going to shy away from my own personal observations just because it runs the risk of offending people. In any case, it's widely documented that epicanthic folds are associated with a high proportion of people from an East / South Asian heritage. Also, what was it that you were referring to re: my "doing exactly what you're trying to argue against"?


She took personal responsibility by tendering her resignation, but then you could argue this was inevitable given that her position was untenable. Also, she has yet to answer for her actions, and we'll hopefully be able to get her side of the story at some point soon.


Some politicians do this all the time and with impunity, which (again) is not my way of excusing what this woman has done.

Hopefully, the truth will out - and then we can make our final judgements on the actions that this woman took to portray herself as being 'black'.
Every time you post you excuse what she's done. Every. Time.
 
Still can't believe anyone is actually tolerating this nonsense and making excuses for it . Bloody mugs .

If someone got up in the morning and started identifying as a a horse the same mugs would be..." we'll you know, it's just a social construct...who are we to tell him he's not a horse ..and horses SHOULD have rights too."

Bloody ridiculous .
Perhaps if you spent a bit more time trying to understand the concepts being discussed, (and less time on ranting), then you might just have a more cohesive argument. I'm just saying is all.
 
Perhaps if you spent a bit more time trying to understand the concepts being discussed, (and less time on ranting), then you might just have a more cohesive argument. I'm just saying is all.
perhaps if you read about what she has actually done, you will find it harder & harder to excuse her behaviour?
 
Every time you post you excuse what she's done. Every. Time.
I think there's a difference between trying to look at it from a different perspective, compared to outright condemnation of her actions. And I'm not necessarily excusing what she's done. If it's proven that she acted as a complete fantasist/fraud, then I'll be as outraged and critical of her as others have been thus far.
 
perhaps if you read about what she has actually done, you will find it harder & harder to excuse her behaviour?
Not only have I taken the time to read about what she's done, but I've also had various posters on this site giving it to me quite forcefully within their own posts. And as for excusing her behaviour... I don't believe I am, (as mentioned in my previous post).
 
I've devoted more of my time to you and your mere cogitations, winifred , than I have done for a long time to any one spouting the kind of bullshit you've been throwing around here the last two days. You persist, despite links, Rutita1 's unbelievable patience and the merits of the story itself to elevate the subject to something that race is not. You have fallen hook, line and sinker to the notion that nigga caps, tribal dancing, afros, twerking, soul food (whatever that's supposed to be outside of Alabama or Mississipi or the US) and a few more of these constitute "black culture".
That, my dear, is exactly what this woman has done. She's used bits of what is seen as black culture and fashioned herself a persona. Even if she's managed to convince herself she's black it doesn't mean she is because blackness is the whole experience of being seen as [something or other] not the experience of seeing yourself as [whatever you think of yourself]. It's the whole experience of seeing yourself disappear in the eyes of your interlocutors to be replaced by whatever stereotypes they choose to hold about people they look at as they look at you.

I don't know how to twerk, I don't wear an afro, I don't sing gospel hymns, or think John [is] Legend, I don't wear the beautiful fabrics of the land that saw me born. My favourite actor is not Denzel Washington, it's Gene Hackman but I held a crush the size of an elephant on Jeremy Irons when I first watched Dead Ringers and when it comes to actresses, it's a Brazilian old chappette called Fernanda Montenegro all the way. I listen to more Mahler than to Alicia Keys and more The Doors than Stevie Wonder and even if I'm enthralled by José Eduardo Agualusa, Saramago is a less quiet solace of mine when Kafka becomes too loud.
All of this to now ask... why is it should I relate to those men and women in America who have been tweeting their angry hearts at Dolezal? What do I have in common with them? Never been to America, haven't met that many Americans in the flesh. Never been to South Africa either but feck and arse, my heart goes fully out there, and when I look at the blatant but unofficial colour coding that goes on in Brazil it's enough to make me cry even as cultures change in all of those places and from each to the next. Learnt an awful lot with the Afro Caribbean community since I got here because in telling their story and making their voices heard I found my own because it's the experience of being black in a white country that i have in common with them. Not the yams or the fucking dub.
It's the experiences various and varied that mean the same for everyone of us in this world... "you're different", "you're lesser", "you're no one".

White privilege winifred is what you guys don't have to do to feel you have a place in the world. White privilege is not having to explore, re-explore, analyse, learn and unlearn and re-learn the politics of race in order to find your place among humanity. White privilege is not having to find and then re-claim your own person from what is reflected to you.
It's not the hairstyles, the music, the lingo, the bling, the dancing or the shouting "Black and Proud". It's the experience of stepping outside and having to protect your own person. That, dear Rachel never had to actually do even if she believes she has. Even the boldness of her deed, [ironically] shows the confidence of someone who has no fucking idea.
 
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Perhaps if you spent a bit more time trying to understand the concepts being discussed, (and less time on ranting), then you might just have a more cohesive argument. I'm just saying is all.

speaking of ranting, I heard a bunch of ranting on the radio about it this morning. All by right wing white men (I'm pretty sure)... Ugh. I don't think you have to be excusing her actions to be turned off by that. I would really like to hear more reactions from black Americans and anti-racist leaders. Other than that, I'm done caring about this story. (not that anyone was asking my opinion :oops: )
 
Do you understand the expression "Just stop digging"?
I don't think I am "digging". In fact, I think we should all probably take a leaf out of Kweisi Mfume's book, as he puts his points across in a calm, considered and measured manner:

Former NAACP President and CEO Kweisi Mfume says he believes Rachel Dolezal "is not make believe when it comes to her sincerity," but should come clean with the Spokane, Washington, NAACP:
 
Not only have I taken the time to read about what she's done, but I've also had various posters on this site giving it to me quite forcefully within their own posts. And as for excusing her behaviour... I don't believe I am, (as mentioned in my previous post).
Well if the law in the US was similar she would be done for contempt of court. She sued Howard University for discriminating against her being white. So presumably she claimed to be white in court? Read it for yourself here.
 
I've devoted more of my time to you and your mere cogitations, winifred , than I have done for a long time to any one spouting the kind of bullshit you've been throwing around here the last two days. You persist, despite links, Rutita1 's unbelievable patience and the merits of the story itself to elevate the subject to something that race is not. You have fallen hook, line and sinker to the notion that nigga caps, tribal dancing, afros, twerking, soul food (whatever that's supposed to be outside of Alabama or Mississipi or the US) and a few more of these constitute "black culture".
That, my dear, is exactly what this woman has done. She's used bits of what is seen as black culture and fashioned herself a persona. Even if she's managed to convince herself she's black it doesn't mean she is because blackness is the whole experience of being seen as [something or other] not the experience of seeing yourself as [whatever you think of yourself]. It's the whole experience of seeing yourself disappear in the eyes of your interlocutors to be replaced by whatever stereotypes they choose to hold about people they look at as they look at you.

I don't know how to twerk, I don't wear an afro, I don't sing gospel hymns, or think John [is] Legend, I don't wear the beautiful fabrics of the land that saw me born. My favourite actor is not Denzel Washington, it's Gene Hackman but I held a crush the size of an elephant on Jeremy Irons when I first watched Dead Ringers and when it comes to actresses, it's a Brazilian old chappette called Fernanda Montenegro all the way. I listen to more Mahler than to Alicia Keys and more The Doors than Stevie Wonder and even if I'm enthralled by José Eduardo Agualusa, Saramago is a less quiet solace of mine when Kafka becomes too loud.
All of this to now ask... why is it should I relate to those men and women in America who have been tweeting their angry hearts at Dolezal? What do I have in common with them? Never been to America, haven't met that many Americans in the flesh. Never been to South Africa either but feck and arse, my heart goes fully out there, and when I look at the blatant but unofficial colour coding that goes on in Brazil it's enough to make me cry even as cultures change in all of those places and from each to the next. Learnt an awful lot with the Afro Caribbean community since I got here because in telling their story and making their voices heard I found my own because it's the experience of being black in a white country that i have in common with them. Not the yams or the fucking dub.
It's the experiences various and varied that mean the same for everyone of us in this world... "you're different", "you're lesser", "you're no one".

White privilege winifred is what you guys don't have to do to feel you have a place in the world. White privilege is not having to explore, re-explore, analyse, learn and unlearn and re-learn the politics of race in order to find your place among humanity. White privilege is not having to find and then re-claim your own person from what is reflected to you.
It's not the hairstyles, the music, the lingo, the bling, the dancing or the shouting "Black and Proud". It's the experience of stepping outside and having to protect your own person. That, dear Rachel never had to actually do even if she believes she has. Even the boldness of her deed, [ironically] shows the confidence of someone who has no fucking idea.

Top notch post
 
I don't think I am "digging". In fact, I think we should all probably take a leaf out of Kweisi Mfume's book, as he puts his points across in a calm, considered and measured manner:

Former NAACP President and CEO Kweisi Mfume says he believes Rachel Dolezal "is not make believe when it comes to her sincerity," but should come clean with the Spokane, Washington, NAACP:

"She is affiliated with Howard University" that much that she sued them for discrimination?
 
I've devoted more of my time to you and your mere cogitations, winifred , than I have done for a long time to any one spouting the kind of bullshit you've been throwing around here the last two days. You persist, despite links, Rutita1 's unbelievable patience and the merits of the story itself to elevate the subject to something that race is not. You have fallen hook, line and sinker to the notion that nigga caps, tribal dancing, afros, twerking, soul food (whatever that's supposed to be outside of Alabama or Mississipi or the US) and a few more of these constitute "black culture".
I'll stop you there, as you've basically misrepresent what I might identify as being part of black culture. I am also a person of 'colour' (if were to be using racial terminology), and I'm fully aware of how race impacts on non white peoples. Granted my own experience probably has been nearly as bad as that of black people living in Western societies, but that doesn't mean to say that I'm completely ignorant when it comes to recognising the nuances of race and racial identity. Somebody mentioned previously that I'm "race obsessed". I don't think I am, but I am very conscious of how race plays its part in shaping and affecting peoples lives, so please don't paint me out as a naive poster who buys into all the black racial stereotypes that you previously listed.

Also, I believe you are reacting against my posts because they don't fit in neatly with your own perceptions about the actions of this woman. I understand that she has transgressed a line when it comes to defining what is meant by 'race'. But I also know that 'race' is an insidious and complex issue, which serves to affirm difference and inferiority to classes of people. I read the article that Rutita1 posted up re: "Transracial lives matter...". Granted I've never had to experience having a complete disconnect from my own culture by being brought up by adoptive parents who have a different culture/are of a different 'race', but if you're a child from a first generation immigrant family like myself, then you can see the disconnect from having to marry your own cultural values, to the British cultural values - which at times were conflicting. Also, having been brought up in a community with only one other Chinese family around meant that I was detached from my Chinese identity. I was only really Chinese in appearance, and my occasional experiences of racism only served to show up the fact that I was different, and would lead me to resenting my 'racial' identity. I could go on but it's getting late and I can't be arsed to explain myself anymore.
 
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