Did he invent a whole new father? Tell lies about his childhood experiences? I'm guessing that he didn't.
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White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years
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Did he invent a whole new father? Tell lies about his childhood experiences? I'm guessing that he didn't.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
This says she sued Howard University in 2002, on various grounds inc. race. Looks like they haven't tracked the details down yet, but the implication is she felt discriminated against as a white person:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/15/rachel-dolezal-sued-howard-university-for-race-dis/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/15/rachel-dolezal-sued-howard-university-for-race-dis/
I think that could be more accurately expressed as did he choose a new father etc
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Difference between what and what? Sorry, I'm getting a little lost here. Are we still talking about this conwoman and comparing what she did to transsexuals?
If so, there is a whole lot more to the difference between the two than reversibility. First and foremost, a transsexual isn't pretending to be something they are not, not if you understand the concept at all. She was very specifically pretending to be something she was not.
tbh if anyone thinks that somehow this woman has some state of being where she feels she is a black person born into the wrong-coloured skin, well, that's massively credulous. I don't even know what that means really.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
It is with complete allegiance to the cause of racial and social justice and the NAACP that I step aside from the Presidency and pass the baton to my Vice President, Naima Quarles-Burnley. It is my hope that by securing a beautiful office for the organization in the heart of downtown, bringing the local branch into financial compliance, catalyzing committees to do strategic work in the five Game Changer issues, launching community forums, putting the membership on a fast climb, and helping many individuals find the legal, financial and practical support needed to fight race-based discrimination, I have positioned the Spokane NAACP to buttress this transition.
'I did this, you need to be grateful. No need for me to apologise for deceiving any of you.'
The bitch has the effrontery to repeat that patronising canard. Earlier in the afternoon, I pondered whether the NAACP might have been trying to deal with her with sensitivity to, I don't know, the possibility of a mental problems or something and I thought, if it were the case then they would be right to do so (myself struggling with a depression and all that) but... shit she really does my head in.
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Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yes. If anyone really wanted to go down this avenue (and I don't), it wouldn't be to compare her to trans people, it would be to compare her to a cross dresser who deliberately deceived a group of women as to their identity to - and here's the crucial bit - gain advantage. Long term advantage.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Privilege rarely speaks to those it purports to
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't see the reference in the judgment to her claiming discrimination for being white. May well be that, still, of course.
This was a thought I had earlier in the thread when people were making pretty charitable speculations about her motivation. Another speculation is just as likely - that she had some feeling that she was not able to get where she wanted because she was white, that somehow the existence of scholarships she wasn't eligible for was holding her back, and if only she could get herself the same breaks that black people get, she could be somebody.
As I said before my interpretation of what she is/was about was disrupting people's expectations because in her view her actual genetic heritage was her business and no-one else's.That too might be open to criticism but that has been my reading of it.The interview quoted by Frogwoman looked to be about to establish that Dolezal was making her life up as she went along until the last paragraph which conceded that this was the actual history of her adopted father.Its all very well to talk about compulsive lying etc but that is your subjective judgement.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sorry, but this is not what she 'is/was about' at all.
Exactly Wilf or to combat disadvantage.have led a sheltered life by the way when it comes to anatomy and trans-people.
You seem very sure.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
About her being a conwoman, yes. About her betraying trust and everything she touched turning to shit, yes. About her being a manipulative liar and a hypocrite, yes. This doesn't require psychoanalysis - you just have to look at what she's done, listen to what she has said and read what she has written.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
It's one thing to *relate to* something by reason of close proximity. It's quite another to actually experience it.
E2a: You definitely don't get to claim to experience it by picking and choosing the bits that you like about it
Treacle Toes
Time
All of these maybe 'she's right' posts. Like her you don't seem to comment on the lies told, the stories about her background she concocted, the false history of oppression she appropriated for herself and her fictional father...Why aren't those considerations for you?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And the personal advantage she sought and gained from her deceit.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Thankfully, there's a Michael Jackson already to compare notes on attitudes. The supremacist double standard never fails to rear its irony riddled head
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I was being a bit sloppy there. I googled 'Dolezal lawsuit 2002' after something I saw elsewhere about her claiming to have been discriminated against as a white woman (guardian comments)... and then made the assumption with Howard being a largely black university. Could have been she was claiming race discrimination because her kid was mixed race.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i wonder if rd masquerades as winifred in spare, grabbed moments between phone calls in spokane
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Someone who is well versed on the various ways and processes by which a whole community is discriminated against, oppressed and made invisible and then goes on to use those same processes and systemic mechanisms for personal gain regardless of consequences towards that same community while claiming to speak for that community and going as far seeking the legitimacy that comes with identifying with the community to raise her voice within and without the community is beyond malicious in my mind. She's malignant. The enemy within.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
There will have been rationalisations. Many, many rationalisations.
The question of malice is of no relevance in my opinion, it is the indifference to harm brought about by the quest for self-aggrandisement that is damning.
winifred
Sinking fast
Unfortunately, I'm not in the position of being able to browse/post whenever I like, so it's not a case of ignoring anything - it's just a case of finding the time to do it.
Also, I'm not in the habit of making immediate judgements on people until I have a better understanding of what's gone on. That doesn't mean to say I think I hold the moral high-ground, because I haven't joined in with the mass vilification of this woman, (as was indicated by another member). I've already stated that I don't necessarily condone what this woman has done, but rather than condemn and dismiss her outright, I'm interested in understanding what motivated her to do what she did.
Obviously, it's apparent that those thoughts aren't shared by a number of people on this site, but I'm just expressing my own interest and curiosity in this story. If anything, it opens up themes around race and identity that might not otherwise have been brought up for discussion.
winifred
Sinking fast
It was fashionable at the time within the black community.
I never said it did. I also didn't say that my brother was 'blacking up', but that it might have been construed that he was. If anything, it was the influence of his black friends and black culture that influenced his choice of image, but I would say that it doesn't immediately point to him wanting to 'black' himself up.
This woman was interviewed and could be seen to avoid the question of whether she considered herself African American. In a separate interview, she said she didn't consider herself African American, but she did consider herself to be 'black'. I believe she also acknowledged her Scandinavian and native American heritage as well within official documents.
Given that she is identifying with a racial label 'black' = a social construct, and not associating herself as being African American = ethnicity, then you would need to question how much of a 'lie' she's really making by identifying herself as being 'black'.
I never said that every person was. In my experience, and correct me if I'm wrong but, those type of (highlighted) facial characteristics are very common within African/Caribbean features. Much in the same way that epicanthic folds are very common within East Asian and Southeast Asian people. But that isn't to say that all of those people have this, as some also have double eyelids. Epicanthic folds can also be found within European populations, but I don't think it would be perpetuating a myth/stereotype to say that it is common to East / Southeast Asian people. Otherwise, to act all indignant about it risks falling into the being PC / trying not to look racist camp.
winifred
Sinking fast
++
I also said "on the face of it" because although the lie is clearly evident due to her biological parents being Caucasian, Duncan2 made an interesting distinction in post #903, (in relation to comparisons I'd made about my brother):
It's possible in choosing to cut all ties with her biological parents, that she identified an older black male (whom she knew well) to become the symbol of the parent that she would have wanted had she lived a different life. Obviously, that's pure speculation on my part, and the truth of her lie still needs to be borne out - but it would be interesting if there was some truth to it in relation to the backstory that she gave re: her 'dad'.
Nb. And that's not me trying to get her off the hook - it's a case of establishing if she really is an out-and-out fantasist as a lot of people suspect, or else somebody who is trying to cultivate a new identity that is based on their own personal truth.
Also, on the subject of biological parents and having an ascribed racial identity, I think it's apt to mention that we can't choose our own families or indeed what culture/country we're born into. But we can possibly change that when we reach a particular age re: emancipating ourselves from our family and even from our adopted culture i.e. by emigrating elsewhere. I think these themes play heavily in the Rachel Dolezal story, which (again) doesn't necessarily give reason to excuse her actions.
Yes, on the face of it this woman appears to be telling a barefaced lie, and if it is proven to be a total fantasy with no basis in truth then I would wholeheartedly condemn such an act.
I also said "on the face of it" because although the lie is clearly evident due to her biological parents being Caucasian, Duncan2 made an interesting distinction in post #903, (in relation to comparisons I'd made about my brother):
Duncan2 said:
It's possible in choosing to cut all ties with her biological parents, that she identified an older black male (whom she knew well) to become the symbol of the parent that she would have wanted had she lived a different life. Obviously, that's pure speculation on my part, and the truth of her lie still needs to be borne out - but it would be interesting if there was some truth to it in relation to the backstory that she gave re: her 'dad'.
Nb. And that's not me trying to get her off the hook - it's a case of establishing if she really is an out-and-out fantasist as a lot of people suspect, or else somebody who is trying to cultivate a new identity that is based on their own personal truth.
Also, on the subject of biological parents and having an ascribed racial identity, I think it's apt to mention that we can't choose our own families or indeed what culture/country we're born into. But we can possibly change that when we reach a particular age re: emancipating ourselves from our family and even from our adopted culture i.e. by emigrating elsewhere. I think these themes play heavily in the Rachel Dolezal story, which (again) doesn't necessarily give reason to excuse her actions.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Surely that should be 'common to some Southeast Asian people'. Without that qualifier I think you are running the risk of doing exactly what you're trying to argue against.
You keep on about trying to understand her motivations for what she did. This isn't a single instance of a misunderstanding that went uncorrected, this is several months (at the least) of co-opting the experiences of black women for her own advantages.
Whatever her motivations her actions have caused damage in the community. She has yet to take any personal responsibility for what she has done. Is that really how a decent community leader behaves, by being dishonest to the community they claim to represent?
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winifred
Sinking fast
Yes, I understand how people feel aggrieved that this woman was effectively trying to 'talk the talk, but without having actually 'walked the walk'. It basically serves as an affront to those who have experienced real discrimination and prejudice, but who would not be able to revert back to the white ideal (as she can), by virtue of having a fixed racial identity/outward appearance. I get that.
However, I still have it in the back of my mind that perhaps her lies weren't maliciously constructed as a means to disempower black people from having their own voice, but as a means to genuinely align herself with the black struggle in America.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Discriminated against because she's white - then a few year's later gets hatemail because she's black. Wow, she's really been unlucky!
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