White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[winifred]

We've covered this shit multiple times on this thread... *snip* So yes, I agree that she shouldn't be judged on those criteria you cite. It's just that she is being judged on completely different criteria.

I see. Sorry I was a little slow on the uptake. On the face of it, it does seem as though she's usurped the position of black people to legitimately identify their own struggles.

However, this woman also seems to have received the full backing of the organisation she sought to represent, which probably suggests that they were happy with her being their 'black' spokesperson.

Also, I've seen debates between black panelists in the UK who have disagreed vehemently as to the degree of discrimination and prejudice that black people encounter within British society. One of the black women argued that things were much better in terms of career and life opportunities, and that black people should stop harking on about their disadvantange as stemming from the legacy of slavery. This appeared to garner much support from quite a few white members of the audience.

Therefore, I actually find it quite refreshing that a white woman was prepared to speak out and fight for equal rights for black people, whilst perhaps experiencing and recounting the kind of racism that black people often encounter day to day re: institutional and everyday racism.

 

[winifred]

Please wise up. I'm not black but if I where'd I'd be well insulted at white people thinking my race was just a costume they could adopt to fill the empty space in their squalid little fuck up of a life . There are no genuine reasons for doing this .

Okay, what if that person was of white heritage and grew up in mainland China and internalised the language and culture enough for them to consider themselves as being 'Chinese'? Would I as a person of Chinese heritage be offended or outraged? My simple answer to that would be no, I wouldn't be offended.

If you support freedom of expression to this ridiculous degree then youre then obliged to support my right to regard anyone who does this , and anyone who supports it , as a complete and utter wanker .

I'm not necessarily an advocate of it, but I can see why some people might want to do it. And if that makes me an "utter wanker" in your eyes, then so be it.

 

[winifred]

[EDIT: Posted in error]

 

[Casually Red]

Okay, what if that person was of white heritage and grew up in mainland China and internalised the language and culture enough for them to consider themselves as being 'Chinese'? Would I as a person of Chinese heritage be offended or outraged? My simple answer to that would be no, I wouldn't be offended.t.

There be absolutely nothing wrong in that, unless the person started altering their appearance to make themselves into a Chinese caricature . Just as there'd be nothing wrong with someone of Chinese heritage identifying as European . This however is blacking up , no matter how one looks at it . And if it's acceptable a return to the black and white minstrels is on the cards . We can't be expected to criticise someone for their make up not being very good , can we ? Who are we to judge, freedom of expression etc .
If you want that genie back out of the bottle so be it . I'm of the opinion it should stay firmly shut .

 

[8ball]

On the face of it, it does seem as though she's usurped the position of black people to legitimately identify their own struggles.

However, this woman seems to have received the full backing of the organisation she sought to represent, which probably suggests that they were happy with her being their 'black' spokesperson.

It's qualified support at best, but you have misunderstood my point. She has usurped the right to speak from experience that she has manifestly faked, not the the right to advocate for black people on behalf of NAACP.

...I actually find it quite refreshing that a white woman was prepared to speak out and fight for equal rights for black people, whilst perhaps experiencing and recounting the kind of racism that black people often encounter day to day re: institutional and everyday racism.

Perhaps?

I think being a bottle of make up remover and a pair of hair straighteners away from being able to simply walk away perhaps makes an important difference to her 'racism experience package' that most don't enjoy.

 

[Casually Red]

Therefore, I actually find it quite refreshing that a white woman was prepared to speak out and fight for equal rights for black people, whilst perhaps experiencing and recounting the kind of racism that black people often encounter day to day re: institutional and everyday racism.

She was sending herself hate mail . And there's more than a whiff of suspicion about various incidents of nooses and swastikas that we're springing up around her as well . Which would indicate her experiences of racism were as manufactured as her fake tan .

 

[Kaka Tim]

She seems like a chronic fabulist - a bullshitter who cant help themselves, compelled to invent stories about themselves with such conviciton that they dupe, not only other people, but themselves. Which sort of suggests profound unhappiness and insecurity.
I think what she has done is very damaging in that it represents a breech of trust on such a large scale, affecting so many people - but I dont see her as a malign person - more of a sad act.

 

[Casually Red]

She seems like a chronic fabulist - a bullshitter who cant help themselves, compelled to invent stories about themselves with such conviciton that they dupe, not only other people, but themselves. Which sort of suggests profound unhappiness and insecurity.
I think what she has done is very damaging in that it represents a breech of trust on such a large scale, affecting so many people - but I dont see her as a malign person - more of a sad act.

If what's been said about her actively encouraging a young person to be racist as part of her acting out is true ,then I'd consider her a malignant influence and personality.

 

[butchersapron]

Now 94, he remains unrepentant about his deception, arguing his aim was to keep the memory of Hitler's Spanish victims alive. "Who would have listened to me if I hadn't created that persona?" he said recently.

No one. No one remembers the war or the camps.

(Anyone know why he was expelled from the CNT in 1980? Decades before his public exposure. I can find Juan Gomez Casas calling him a liar before his CNT election (and how the hell could a CNT sec accept the Cross of St. George from the govt?)

 

[Favelado]

(Anyone know why he was expelled from the CNT in 1980? Decades before his public exposure. )

Marco no resultó reelegido en el V Congreso de la CNT y se alineó con quienes impugnaron los resultados de éste. Por su actividad en relación con ello, Marco fue expulsado de la CNT en abril de 1980.

"Marco wasn't reselected in the 5th Congress of the CNT and aligned himself with others questioning the results of it. For his activity in relation to this, he was expelled from the CNT in May 1980".

Spanish Wiki.

 

[butchersapron]

Ta.

 

[Favelado]

Ta.

To be honest I don't think "Abril" translates as "May" but I'm on my first coffee of the day.

 

[Favelado]

Factory Records fans can't get May 1980 out of their heads ever.

 

[Athos]

It was when she presented herself as someone who had directly experienced (not emphasised with, but directly experienced) racial prejudice and aggression that she usurped a position that she had no right to.

But, bizarrely, she may well have suffered racial prejudice; she looked mixed race to me, and some white racists may have thought the same, and given her some stick for it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

No, fair enough. Maybe that's the difference, then - the real world consequences of accepting/not accepting. But that raises the paradox that the more Dolzeal is abused for blacking up, the more we ought to accept that she is black.

Really? B&W ministrels do what they do/did what they did so we need to accept they are B&W ministrels, cos they are B&W ministrels and are completely/totally/unquestionably ministrels and that is okay?

 

[Duncan2]

if there is a difference between Marco and Dolezal I think it could be stated something like this.Marco had not suffered in the way he claimed to have suffered so his attempted justification on the lines of the end justifies the means fell a bit flat.This is way more than we know for sure yet in Dolezal's case.Dolezal is way more than a carpet-bagger within the black community,she married a black man and she has a mixed son.For all we know that son suffers discrimination.If he does I have no doubt that Dolezal feels his pain and on that ground if on no other wants to react against a system that judges a person by what they are like on the outside when it should be more important what you are like on the inside (Dolezal had a fairly strict religious upbringing apparently).The 'blacking up' that is rather being exaggerated could be seen as part of more wide-ranging anti-discrimination strategies being adopted by Dolzal and perhaps to some extent justified on those grounds.The damaging bit for me is if it turns out that Dolezal posted the hate mail to herself and put the noose in the garden herself.She may have done but equally she might have genuinely been targetted by someone who objects either to her family or to the apparently effective advocacy work she is doing at the NAACP.We just don't know, the black community seem to be sticking by her thus far from what I have read.Tons of black women use stuff to make their skin tone lighter its a pity that they feel the need to do that but I wouldn't blame them for it it just depends where you want to be accepted.Sorry if I am just repeating other peoples stuff but I am with campanula on this everyone being mixed may be the future in the UK as well and not a bad thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But, bizarrely, she may well have suffered racial prejudice; she looked mixed race to me, and some white racists may have thought the same, and given her some stick for it.

She might have done. But only after starting the charade. And she probably has suffered racist prejudice with her son.

Doesn't really change the central point, and certainly doesn't justify anything.

 

[Athos]

Really? B&W ministrels do what they do/did what they did so we need to accept they are B&W ministrels, cos they are B&W ministrels and are completely/totally/unquestionably ministrels and that is okay?

No. What you've said doesn't follow from what I said.

 

[Athos]

She might have done. But only after starting the charade. And she probably has suffered racist prejudice with her son.

Doesn't really change the central point, and certainly doesn't justify anything.

No, I agree. I was critical of her from the outset.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No. What you've said doesn't follow from what I said.

I'm a bit puzzled by your post, though. If this isn't what you meant, what did you mean? I'm not sure I see the paradox.

 

[winifred]

*snip* This however is blacking up , no matter how one looks at it . And if it's acceptable a return to the black and white minstrels is on the cards . We can't be expected to criticise someone for their make up not being very good , can we ? Who are we to judge, freedom of expression etc .
If you want that genie back out of the bottle so be it . I'm of the opinion it should stay firmly shut .

I personally wouldn't consider applying fake tan as a means of "blacking up". And definitely not to be likened to the 'black and white minstrels' who purposely set out to ape black people, (whilst actually using theatrical black face paint).

Also, racially associated phenotypes are often adopted by people around the world e.g. people using bleaching products to whiten their skin; surgical procedures for Southeast Asian people to have double eyelids etc. Plus you get white people adopting hairstyles like dreadlocks and braids, which are associated with black culture / appearance.

 

[Athos]

I'm a bit puzzled by your post, though. If this isn't what you meant, what did you mean? I'm not sure I see the paradox.

Someone (Frogwoman, maybe?) made the point that the difference in how we ought to treat someone who transitions sex from someone who transistions race lies in a real-world factor (i.e. not some philosophical difference): the extent to which those who make the change are persecuted - a reference to the horrible abuse that transwomen suffer. That creates the paradox that the more Dolezal is abused for changing race, the more we ought to accept her in that new identity. And my point was that, as such, I'm not entirely comfortable with the extent of persecution being the basis of the difference between the two (a difference which I've explained I feel, but can't quite explain on an intellectual level).

 

[winifred]

[Edit: Double posted]
I think I read somewhere, that this woman's motivations may have stemmed from some sort of self hating complex = rejecting her white heritage. Would probably explain a lot in relation to why she chose to adopt a 'black' identity.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the 'black and white minstrels' who purposely set out to ape black people.
.

Don't think that's what they were doing. They purposely set out to portray a racist caricature of black people. Not quite the same.

 

[butchersapron]

Spokane is an interesting place - Frank Little ("half White, half Indian, All IWW") led a free speech fight there before he was tortured and lynched.

 

[winifred]

Don't think that's what they were doing. They purposely set out to portray a racist caricature of black people. Not quite the same.

How about you check it out first before making such assumptions?

 

[frogwoman]

 

[MochaSoul]

Interesting article here:

http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2015/06/12/rachel-dolezal-racial-identity-trouble-with-white-womanhood/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+racismreview/nYnz+(racismreview.com)

Lots to chew in there some of which has been alluded to here already

 

[MochaSoul]

Colour photography is racist - really, this is not a joke:

http://jezebel.com/the-truth-about-photography-and-brown-skin-1557656792

E2A: But do read the comment in the thread that follows, in which a professional photography responds and says that a properly trained professional photographer can still take accurate pictures of black skin tones if he/she does his/her job properly.

It's the kind of thing that leads me to think the fight against racism is a working progress. I find Jezebel too angry at times but one of the reasons I appreciate it is the intersectionality of its scope. Were it not for organisations like it we'd not hear about black women, old women, fat women, etc which help society evolve by raising consciousness. Of course that's also what galls me about Dolezal. How dare she pretend to speak for black women all round when even we have trouble spotting every single shade of a system that undermines us, our visibility and the reach of our voices and, most of all, educates us to accept and even contribute to that drowning.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How about you check it out first before making such assumptions?

It was a bit of a nitpick on my part, tbf, although I think it's a distinction worth making... but eh?

I should check out what before making what assumptions?