butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What's a fair deal?
Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?
- Thread starter J Ed
- Start date
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I changed my mind.
Largely because given how the UK Tories are a bit of a wildcard in the global push for austerity (in that they're a bit mental and astonishingly ignorant of the repercussions of their actionsbeyond their Etonian bubble) any chance to weaken the weakness should be taken.
I'm still pro-Europe mind.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I am not sure. Which is why I would like a chance to play with the figures and see what pops out. Is it fair according to population, according to GDP, to GDP/person, to levels of poverty, agriculture etc etc ...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's suggesting taking advantage of a potential situation surely - the vote is neither protest no anti/pro. (protest vote being understood as we would like you politicians to sort things out better). Lots of anti-AV voters were in the same boat - they didn't care one way or the other but saw that a non vote could do potential harm.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well, do you mean does it cost us (the state) or do we get more back than we pay out. (Leaving aside this 'we' for now). Or do you have some other measure?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
It was a complete non-runner, would have needed the SNP to even have a chance of passing legislation and they were never going into alliance with Labour, too much emnity with the Scottish Labour Party.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I am making the factual observation that the sets "voted for AV" and "Support the EU" are in no way identical, since UKIP supported AV. The fact that Lib Dems supported AV and also support a YES vote on EU does not mean everyone who supports one or both is a lib dem.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It was the least likely, but it was still another option that could have been looked at, which is the point.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
It was looked at (they met) but it was a waste of time and everyone knew it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well thanks for that. And the point of it?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to know both the membership costs, and the subsidy flows.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That is not really relevant though - it's the fact that there was another option that the lib-dems had and could have pursued if they were serious. Does remind me of another one though - they could have simply voted with all these other odds and ends against the queens speech - no need to do any deals with anyone .
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
As to the OP, I want to see a Socialist Europe, but don't think the EU set up can be reformed into something absolutely opposite from what it is now. But nor do I want out on the basis that UKIP and the Tory swivelled eyed loons do (rip up every last vestige of social protection going).
So I'm undecided leading to No/Out, but worried about the implications either way.
So I'm undecided leading to No/Out, but worried about the implications either way.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm sure it would (readily available btw) but that still leaves the question of how you are going to judge what is a fair deal.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
the point of it is to assert that questions should be judged on their merits, not like you/Farage/Spiked etc. what happens to get up the nose of the liberal left mainstream.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Thanks for that assertion. What's the point of it? Nice to see though that my positions - ones that i have argued for as long as i've been politically aware - is mere contrarianism - i guess everyone who disagrees with you appears that way to you. What a pompous post articul8 - really.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
We're repeating ourselves here; you say it was an option - theoretically that's true, then I say in reality it didn't exist, it simply couldn't be done and no one who looks at the numbers ever thinks otherwise. And they did "pursue" it - they had a series of meetings with Labour and the pretty universal feedback was that Labour just didn't make an effort. FWIW I think they were going throught the motions - it was a bit of theatre + Nick Clegg obviously loved every little minute in the sun of media attention.
I'm not trying to let the wankers off the hook btw - they could easily have gone for confidence and supply and sent the tories in as a very sticky wicket minority govt and then cherry-picked what to support and what to oppose - would have been a far better strategy for them imo - but then I'm not a raving Orange-book neo-liberal who secretly wants to join the conservative party.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
In reality, there were no options - and there were no options because the lib-dems a month before the election had already stitched it up with the tories (feel myself getting angry again now just typing that). But GG is arguing from the position that even if they wanted to do something different they could not have, that there were no other options. On that he is wrong - as, it seems, we agree.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Well, if we're moving beyond the stage of insinuating everyone who disagrees with you, or even fails to do so immediately, is some kind of liberal that's a start.
Do you think it will be possible to get a mass audience for a pro-w/c case for leaving the EU? If so, how?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
It is dubious when people who do one thing then do another thing isn't it?
Are you being sarcastic? If you have some successful internet based projects you have been a part of could you please share them with us, so we may learn some lessons from you? I know I've asked similar questions in the past, but you always seem shy. It's strange, because you are never shy of slagging people off.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Yep - and if you look at what that creep Clegg was saying all through 2009 he repeatedly stated that he was only going to go into coalition with the largest party (or words to this effect) - and since the polls were continually showing the tories were going to be that party, that meant he was always intending to do this deal, well before he saw the numbers. In reality the margin between the tories and Labour narrowed a lot in the last 3 or 4 months before the election so he was almost asked to choose - he must have been sweating at that point. The 'political' justification was that they were 'not going to overturn the will of the people' or some such horseshit.
Oh yes I agree with you here - it's just that the LD-Labour + small fry thing was never possible, literally impossible in reality, that was my only point.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hang on, you're going to assert my position is pure contrarianism then just walk away from it? I think you revealed rather too much of how you view other political actors there. Maybe you're too long in that houses of parliament bubble. I insinuated no such thing btw i have spent most of this thread arguing with people who share the same concerns as me that the EU is opposed to those aims - an argument that starts from our common ground, from them not being pathetic hand-wringing really existing liberals like yourself.
A mass audience? You mean how can you broadcast to the class and take control of any anti-eu initiatives for labour?
The EU is not something around which a mass pro w/c audience can be constructed - what possibilities that exist are the same outside of the EU, helping communities in identifying class needs and developing responses to them - that path itself leads to the recognition that the EU cannot and is not designed to meet those needs. Your model of a mass level union lead campaign is a waste of time and money. Sihhi nailed this last night - anti-austerity is the key, but one that leads through anti-euism (last part my reading).butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Was it laughing at the edl who did the class and other prejudice based stuff or not?
Don't see why i have to, but my record is fantastic. Don't get the hump because i think your edl site (and now your UKIP one - not the ones we're talking about here either) are pretty poor examples of satire.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Well I have not gone looking yet but I expect I will. As to a fair deal, I am sure some investigation might suggest whether Britain is getting a fair deal compared with other EU members, France, Germany, whoever ....
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Which must be the single worst position for a third party at any time in history, we will go into coalition with which ever party is bigger - leading people to conclude OK we best concentrate on making which of the other parties we like most beat the other one.
from their point of view.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
No. It's neither possible nor necessary.
I don't think we should be campaigning for a "no" (or a "yes"). Both options are being framed by anti w/c forces. There is no "socialist case" to argue.
Simply, "out" will cause capital more self-harm than "in". It will exacerbate Pre-existing tensions in the British and European ruling class. That's all. No more, no less.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
So you're back at that game of imputing arguments to me and then arguing with them?
