butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah, thanks for the bubble, look at us go now. Irish capital benefited from inward eu investment,. Guess who got stung when it all went to shite?
Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?
- Thread starter J Ed
- Start date
Fez909
toilet expert
Greece isn't being fucking because it's in the EU, though. It's being fucked because it doesn't print its own money. If it were able to devalue its currency it'd be in much better shape, and the Germans wouldn't be imposing austerity as it wouldn't have affect them in the same way as it does now.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Are you slowly turning into Basil Fawlty or something?
grit
an ugly force for good
Fez909
toilet expert
Close enough, I think.
Cameron has promised to renegotiate the terms that Britain has to abide by to be in the EU. He hasn't said what he wants, but there's vague hints of repatriation of powers and perhaps paying less into it. OK so far?
He's said that once he knows what the EU can offer us, then he'll put this to the country to see if we want to leave. This will happen after the next election.
Where am I misunderstanding there?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Great reply.Us?
The EU/IMF/ECB troika isn't fucking greece? Really. It's not the troikas imposed plans and effective governance that's cutting jobs, selling off services, cutting pensions, making people work longer, putting them out of social housing, putting up utility prices? And it's the ECHR that's protecting them or something?
Greece isn't being fucking because it's in the EU, though. It's being fucked because it doesn't print its own money. If it were able to devalue its currency it'd be in much better shape, and the Germans wouldn't be imposing austerity as it wouldn't have affect them in the same way as it does now.
grit
an ugly force for good
I can only work with what you give me. So fucking hell eh, butchers is one of my own.
Should have known.
Then what happened.
grit
an ugly force for good
Lots of things.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
This is a thread about the UK's place in the EU, though, not about the troika and Greece. Tell us how and why common standards for consumer, industrial and social protection are an evil tool of capital.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Because you have read re-negotiation (a political manouvere) as we want to leave the EU despite this being the exact opposite of what they, their backers and their coalition partners want. Have you some evidence that you can show of this tory leadership or those who they represent wanting to leave the EU?
tony.c
Well-Known Member
Wasn't his username a clue?
Fez909
toilet expert
Why offer a referendum if they don't want out? Why even bring up Europe in the first place when it has fucked their previous two PMs?
Are you saying this is all a distraction from the UK's domestic situation? Why else is the party tearing itself apart, if it's not what anyone wants?
grit
an ugly force for good
Wasn't his username a clue?
Funnily enough no, which after gogling it seems odd considering the Sinn Féin household I grew up in. I had assumed it was about creating the mental image of something very red!
He is a plastic paddy at best anyway.
tony.c
Well-Known Member
Now you're asking for trouble!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
To pose as being anti-euro, and on the side of those who demand a say - basic politics. Same reason labour are being dragged into supporting the referendum.
If they want to leave then why are they tearing themselves apart? Why would they be?
The centre and the leadership, the string pullers do not want to leave. A few shouty MP who aren't plugged into the real power do. Hence the fighting.
Fez909
toilet expert
Basic politics isn't igniting a debate which you know will fuck up your election chances. The Tories are mental when it comes to Europe, and the voters don't like in-fighting, so why risk it? What do they gain? It's not worth losing power to appear anti-Euro.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Of course that's basic politics - who said they had to do it well? Or in a united manner? Or in one that appeals to the electorate? Why is the in-fighting happening if they are all happily united in their desire to leave the EU? Where is the in-fighting coming from? That needs an answer from you.
I reckon it's necessary to mention the fundamentals.
Capital has tolerated the EU because it prevents any of the member states adopting either fascist (NSDAP) or Stalinist/Leninist policies.
That is why Stalinists and Leninists oppose it. It kills their dreams of running the workers' dictatorship for us. (I am surprised at some of those lining up with them.)
The trade off was sort-of social democratic: regulated capitalism.
That is: privatisation on the one hand; and Working Time, Health and Safety, introducing friction into hire-and-fire and consulting trades unions and stuff on the other.
So it explicitly rules out a workers' paradise; and equally it rules out Mexican maquiladoras and, in theory, Bangladeshi sweatshops.
Unless you expect the imminent overthrow of capitalism, you're asked to accept the trade-off as better than a slap in the face.
Capital has tolerated the EU because it prevents any of the member states adopting either fascist (NSDAP) or Stalinist/Leninist policies.
That is why Stalinists and Leninists oppose it. It kills their dreams of running the workers' dictatorship for us. (I am surprised at some of those lining up with them.)
The trade off was sort-of social democratic: regulated capitalism.
That is: privatisation on the one hand; and Working Time, Health and Safety, introducing friction into hire-and-fire and consulting trades unions and stuff on the other.
So it explicitly rules out a workers' paradise; and equally it rules out Mexican maquiladoras and, in theory, Bangladeshi sweatshops.
Unless you expect the imminent overthrow of capitalism, you're asked to accept the trade-off as better than a slap in the face.
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
Most fucking definitely Yes.
I'm all for Europe, but it's the social Europe I support, y'know the European working class. I do not support the bosses Europe.
Did the EU do that much for Ireland, in terms of investment I would argue that the low corporate tax rate, highly educated workforce, low pay economy and direct US multinational investment actually created the 'The tiger' more than structural funding from the EU did.
As for the UK leaving the EU. Fuck all will really change, the UK will prpbably be part of the Euro Free Trade Area but won't have much influence in Brussels any more.
I'm all for Europe, but it's the social Europe I support, y'know the European working class. I do not support the bosses Europe.
Did the EU do that much for Ireland, in terms of investment I would argue that the low corporate tax rate, highly educated workforce, low pay economy and direct US multinational investment actually created the 'The tiger' more than structural funding from the EU did.
As for the UK leaving the EU. Fuck all will really change, the UK will prpbably be part of the Euro Free Trade Area but won't have much influence in Brussels any more.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
They know they're gonna lose the next election anyway. Hence the almost panicked slash and burn policies. This is (partly) about jockeying for position to potentially lead the Party in 2020. Plus backbenchers covering their own asses. Plus assorted ideologues pushing agendas...all prodded and poked by the various factions/interest groups of capital looking to profit from it.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Who said that they were? The point is that they're utterly toothless. Where are the social protections that are supposedly guaranteed by the EU while people are on the brink of starvation and people are being denied basic medicines in Greece? Where are the industrial protections for migrant workers earning less than £1 an hour?
You appear to be confusing stuff being written down on a piece of paper with it actually happening.
Fez909
toilet expert
I honestly don't know. I don't get why the referendum has been offered. It's not high on anyone's demands, it's not good for the Tory party's backers, it's not good for the Tory's re-election campaign, it's not good for European relations nor intra-party relations.
I'm baffled as to why it's even blown up. And I still don't know which way I'd vote.
Gotta go out now, but looking forward to reading some responses which might sway me one way or the other.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm trying to establish first that if the tory party are united in their desire to leave the eu, this in-fighting would not have blown up. It has, therefore they are not united in their desire to leave the eu. The reason the referendum has been offered is a) so tory mps can say to the UKIP voters abandoning the tories in their seats - many of who are under serious threat from UKIP opening the door to labour - that look, we can give you what UKIP can, there is no need to leave us and b) so Cameron can keep his anti-eu MPs quiet (that being the intention, not the outcome) . Simple basic politics again.I honestly don't know. I don't get why the referendum has been offered. It's not high on anyone's demands, it's not good for the Tory party's backers, it's not good for the Tory's re-election campaign, it's not good for European relations not intra-party relations.
I'm baffled as to why it's even blown up. And I still don't know which way I'd vote.
Gotta go out now, but looking forward to reading some responses which might sway me one way or the other.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
Isn't that an argument for strengthening EU institutions?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's an argument that the EU has no interest in strengthening or even upholding them - and so arguments that support the eu on the basis that it can and wants to do this fall.
Now some details.
- The EU is the only actually-existing power that is a candidate to do anything about the banks.The odds are slightly against it imposing a Tobin tax, but it could happen.
- Parts of capital - the garagistes mostly - are scenting the EU's weakening with the Euro's troubles, and thinking they can ditch the trade-off. Other than banking and media corporations, however, most corporations large enough to hire rational people in significant numbers accept it - see the CBI's position. This makes standing up for it (for all its faults and so on) uncomfortable.
- The European Convention on Human Rights (and its Court) is not an EU institution but adherence to it is (in practice at least) required of EU member states.
- The conditions of workers in Greece, etc are being slashed - back to the minimum level set out in the Directives. As I understand it, in Greece they're losing theoretical rights that we in the UK have never had. And theoretical is important - only a few workers ever benefited in practice.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Some info on how Switzerland relates to the EU here:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/
