Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?

[butchersapron]

This is a total hypothetical - I still think it unlikely a referendum will happen, since the dominant capitalist bloc doesn't have any interest in one.

Does this "dominant capitalist bloc" dictate what happens politically? How?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yes - not got the hump at all. As said before, my record is fantastic - though why i need to show that i'm better at satire than your embarrassing messese i don't know. You were linking to the UKIP one the other week pretending that it's not you, let's have a look. Shine that light in our faces.

Why are you avoiding the subject? I don't have the hump with your critique of me. I can handle critique. I'm not sure if you can though.

The thing you are talking about from the other week: I seriously don't recall, but if I had a hand in something I'd have no cause to deny it.

Not that any of this speaks to my request at all, which is not limited to satire by the way : Anything at all of this fantastic stuff of yours will do. Or is it "fantastic" in the way of being a product of fantasy?

Thanks in advance for confirming that the last question was needlessly cynical.

 

[articul8]

Are we back to me now only arguing an anti-eu position due to contrarianism. You ran away on this one earlier. And yes, writing people and issues off as contrarianism is one way that people like you digest disagreement. It's one reason UKIP is on the march.

I can see you are getting angry because I'm failing to play my alloted role of anxiously calling for people to vote to stay in

 

[articul8]

Does this "dominant capitalist bloc" dictate what happens politically? How?

The dominant bloc tends to dominate what happens politically - if it didn't it would no longer be dominant It doesn't "dictate".

 

[butchersapron]

Why are you avoiding the subject? I don't have the hump with your critique of me. I can handle critique. I'm not sure if you can though.

The thing you are talking about from the other week: I seriously don't recall, but if I had a hand in something I'd have no cause to deny it.

Not that any of this speaks to my request at all, which is not limited to satire by the way : Anything at all of this fantastic stuff of yours will do. Or is it "fantastic" in the way of being a product of fantasy?

Thanks in advance for confirming that the last question was needlessly cynical.

Why am i avoiding posting up my own efforts at satirical websbites? NOT GOT THE HUMP one year later. Even better now, demand did you did great stuff on the internet, where when? I did as it goes. Your i don't want you make it public, pm me/MAKE IT PUBLIC is a bit off.

 

[butchersapron]

I can see you are getting angry because I'm failing to play my alloted role of anxiously calling for people to vote to stay in

Angry? Not really, the mention of your mates pre-election lash up made me angry. You trying to find ever more sophisticated ways to say that everyone else is thick and that this is proper marxism is making me laugh though. Can we identify what the % of thick media-ledness people have in different areas?

 

[butchersapron]

The dominant bloc tends to dominate what happens politically - if it didn't it would no longer be dominant It doesn't "dictate".

What is this current dominant bloc articul8? What is it dominating politically? What is its relationship to wider capital. How is that expressed politically?

 

[articul8]

Angry? Not really, the mention of your mates pre-election lash up made me angry. You trying to find ever more sophisticated ways to say that everyone else is thick and that this is proper marxism is making me laugh though. Can we identify what the % of thick media-ledness people have in different areas?

Ah, another ad hominem followed up by the imputation of a daft argument, reducing mediation to "media" in the process - you really are spoiling us now.

 

[The Pale King]

I've changed my mind over the past year or two. I used to have a dilettante-ish support for the EU cos of the social chapter, working time directive & other workers' rights etc, and the principle of generally cooperating with our neighbours. But the past few years have seen the EU pushing the bosses' neoliberal agenda even harder, and the attacks on the economies of the southern Euro countries are entrenching poverty and inequality. As I've learnt more about how the EU works, I like it less and less.

I do think it's a bit like the AV vote - a false 'choice' sold as something meaningful. I would probably spoil my ballot at the moment, but as I learn more I'm moving more towards saying GTFO.

Then there is stuff like this where the EU are doing a 'free trade' deal with the US which would mean - among other things - that NHS services would have to be open to bids from private money/private contracts in perpetuity, with no chance of renationalisation ever. Fuck that.

This is pretty much my position too. Always liked the idea of pan-European cooperation, an EU trade block strong enough to stand up to the U.S and China. But when I see neoliberalism elevated to governing principle, I realise my earlier naivite. I voted undecided, but I would probably vote out.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Butchers - why do you think I am asking only about satire when I have made it very clear I am referring to anything at all?

in fact I'd be more interested in serious stuff. I have asked between a year back and now on a few occasions, genuinely not having the hump with regards to the satire stuff.

I'm not talking about "great stuff on the internet" either. There might be great stuff you did for which there is evidence on the internet. In fact, it's hard to conceive that there isn't, but I'm sure you could explain if that was the case.

Now that I have clarified I look forward to learning more about the fantastic stuff you've been up to, so thanks again.

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, another ad hominem followed up by the imputation of a daft argument, reducing mediation to "media" in the process - you really are spoiling us now.

Note the 'us'. It's odd how media has no role in mediation isn't it? One minute ago it was central, now...nothing.

 

[articul8]

What is this current dominant bloc articul8? What is it dominating politically? What is its relationship to wider capital. How is that expressed politically?

My point was that the framing of the "in/out" options works to exclude the articulation of interests/positions that are hostile to the interests of the main fraction of British capitalism. Do you disagree?

 

[articul8]

Note the 'us'. It's odd how media has no role in mediation isn't it? One minute ago it was central, now...nothing.

I didn't say it wasn't an important mediating factor. But it is far from the only one, or the most signficant.

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers - why do you think I am asking only about satire when I have made it very clear I am referring to anything at all?

in fact I'd be more interested in serious stuff. I have asked between a year back and now on a few occasions, genuinely not having the hump with regards to the satire stuff.

I'm not talking about "great stuff on the internet" either. There might be great stuff you did for which there is evidence on the internet. In fact, it's hard to conceive that there isn't, but I'm sure you could explain if that was the case.

Now that I have clarified I look forward to learning more about the fantastic stuff you've been up to, so thanks again.

Why have you decided that i need to do this btw? What's your grounds if it is not getting the hump at your attempts and a let's see how you do tantrum? You asked a year back, and you asked when i said your satire was shit (it is), i think the two may be connected.

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't say it wasn't an important mediating factor. But it is far from the only one, or the most signficant.

What % is it acceptable for people to get their views from the media from articul8?

 

[butchersapron]

My point was that the framing of the "in/out" options works to exclude the articulation of interests/positions that are hostile to the interests of the main fraction of British capitalism. Do you disagree?

And my point was that making the framing of the options the issue is to argue that what is important is competeting views of capital. That you miss the real value of debate over this as you can only frame things in your union/labour campaign view of the world. Disagreement isn't even in it.

 

[articul8]

What % is it acceptable for people to get their views from the media from articul8?

More simple minded buffoonery. As though I ever argued people "took" their views from the media like off a shelf. The discourse of "democracy" as wielded by Tony Benn is more what I have in mind by "mediating influence" - but think of all the material resources that have gone, and still go, into sustaining that - not just ruling class but working class (time/energy/hope of the Chartists/Suffragettes/AV campaigners )

 

[sihhi]

You underestimate Rupert's antipathy to the EU - not least because it might put an end to his tax fiddles legitimate avoidance of tax - whereas he's sure no UK government would dare.

And the Rothermeres'.

Is the Star still publishing?

Yes the Star is still going what is that meant to mean?

Murdoch's position was to keep Britain in but make it fight for a looser, more opt outs from the social chapter kind of EU entity. As here

I get no sense that Murdoch would be willing to pressure his newspapers to act for total withdrawal. His meeting with Farage didn't end with any kind of endorsement or swing to outright withdrawal. The News International paper the Sun urges Tory action to ward off UKIP:

IT'S all about Nigel in politics right now. Hardly a day goes by without someone of that name stealing the headlines. First UKIP leader Nigel Farage gave a bloody nose to all three main party leaders in the local elections. Then deputy Commons Speaker Nigel Evans was arrested on suspicion of rape and sexual assault, which he denies. Not to be outdone, another Nige has stepped into the limelight - former Chancellor Lord Lawson. He sent a third shockwave through Westminster by siding with his UKIP namesake and calling for Britain to leave the EU. His remarks amplify the voices of one in four voters who helped the other Nigel win 139 council seats. And today our YouGov poll further shows how voters feel - with a massive 16 per cent backing UKIP. David Cameron must now listen and act by giving people a real say over our future in Europe. He should start by naming a date for a referendum and passing laws to show he means business. It's time to start making plans for Nigels - and the rest of us.

On Friday, the PM will tell us how he wants our relationship with Brussels to change.
But although there will be promises of a referendum if the Tories win the 2015 election, there will be no vote this side of it.
The danger for Mr Cameron is that his delaying tactics are playing into the hands of fast-rising UKIP. Voters don't want to wait years for their say. The pressure is building on Mr Cameron to show he is not playing for time but serious about EU reform. If UKIP beat the Conservatives in next year's European Parliament elections, as polls suggest, the stage is set for squeaky bum time at Tory HQ.

It's not anti-UKIP for sure, but tilts towards 'In Europe, Not Run By Europe' default Tory position.

 

[articul8]

And my point was that making the framing of the options the issue is to argue that what is important is competeting views of capital. That you miss the real value of debate over this as you can only frame things in your union/labour campaign view of the world. Disagreement isn't even in it.

competing views of capital, perhaps, to a greater or lesser extent. But perhaps you'd explain this scenario where people vote UKIP and the roof falls in?

 

[butchersapron]

More simple minded buffoonery. As though I ever argued people "took" their views from the media like off a shelf. The discourse of "democracy" as wielded by Tony Benn is more what I have in mind by "mediating influence" - but think of all the material resources that have gone, and still go, into sustaining that - not just ruling class but working class (time/energy/hope of the Chartists/Suffragettes/AV campaigners )

Yes, in this more sophisticated world they have a think about it before becoming right-wing bastards because of the mail.

 

[butchersapron]

competing views of capital, perhaps, to a greater or lesser extent. But perhaps you'd explain this scenario where people vote UKIP and the roof falls in?

What? Seriously, what?

 

[articul8]

Yes, in this more sophisticated world they have a think about it before becoming right-wing bastards because of the mail.

perhaps they start agreeing with right wing bastards because The Guardian makes them so contrarian?

 

[articul8]

What? Seriously, what?

You want a No vote in an in/out referendum? Why? What would follow from it, for capital?

 

[sihhi]

More simple minded buffoonery. As though I ever argued people "took" their views from the media like off a shelf. The discourse of "democracy" as wielded by Tony Benn is more what I have in mind by "mediating influence" - but think of all the material resources that have gone, and still go, into sustaining that - not just ruling class but working class (time/energy/hope of the Chartists/Suffragettes/AV campaigners )

Wow - it's like you're choosing to step through an exposed spike on purpose.

How does the mediating influence of e.g. Unlock Democracy - work with the "discourse of democracy"?

 

[articul8]

Wow - it's like you're choosing to step through an exposed spike on purpose.
How does the mediating influence of e.g. Unlock Democracy - work with the "discourse of democracy"?

Can't answer that just now - but re "democracy" would be stupid to leave this terrain of struggle, it's about (re?)appropriating the term from the m/c, actively intervening and rearticulating the concept to disrupt the hegemonic function it plays within the legitimation of capitalism/liberal democracy.

 

[chilango]

Can't answer that just now - but re "democracy" would be stupid to leave this terrain of struggle, it's about (re?)appropriating the term from the m/c, actively intervening and rearticulating the concept to disrupt the hegemonic function it plays within the legitimation of capitalism/liberal democracy.

Fuck yeah!

 

[butchersapron]

You want a No vote in an in/out referendum? Why? What would follow from it, for capital?

Have you been reading this thread? I guess not, it's just buffons and contrarians. They always are.

 

[butchersapron]

perhaps they start agreeing with right wing bastards because The Guardian makes them so contrarian?

What? Seriously, what?

 

[butchersapron]

Can't answer that just now - but re "democracy" would be stupid to leave this terrain of struggle, it's about (re?)appropriating the term from the m/c, actively intervening and rearticulating the concept to disrupt the hegemonic function it plays within the legitimation of capitalism/liberal democracy.

This is drivel. Ask yourself what audience you hope to capture by it. The answer should tell us all we need to know.

 

[sihhi]

Have you been reading this thread? I guess not, it's just buffons and contrarians. They always are.

That was decided pre-thread: voting an anti-EU total withdrawal position in order to delay EU austerity is like being the RCP or UKIP.

the point of it is to assert that questions should be judged on their merits, not like you/Farage/Spiked etc.