When is it okay for the left to get in bed with the far right

[ska invita]

And I think UKIP are a vote-friendly Far Right, but feel free to disagree.

For me the answer is never and under no circumstances, and thats why nothing on earth would make me have voted for Exit.

Found out today that Lexit The Movie - a pro-exit hour long documentary that included Tony Benn etc - was crowdfunded on the main Leave campaign website (that one that Farage and Boris fronted) and the key financiers were UKIP supporters. UKIP also distributed the film widely.

For example here's a quote from UKIP Wales website:
Nathan Gill, UKIP Leader in Wales said:

“One of the greatest things that has happened during this EU Referendum campaign is the coming together of people, political parties and groups from right across the political spectrum. A couple of weeks ago “Brexit The Movie” was released: a documentary detailing the facts.

A couple of days ago Labour Leave, a group of pro-Brexit Labour members and supporters, released a feature length movie called “Lexit The Movie”. I urge you to watch this fantastic video which was made in just 2 weeks with £6000.

If you thought that Labour members and supporters were all Remaniacs then think again! Please share this video with your family and friends.”
>>>> Lexit The Movie - UKIP Wales | Cymru

That racist rag the Express of course were very happy to publiise the fact too:
Lexit the Movie: WATCH Labour Leave film on why Britain should cut ties with Brussels


To me its a total red line, particularly so if its the left hanging on to the tailcoats of the right, and I'm curious what others think.

 

[phildwyer]

It depends what you mean by "Left" and "Right."

I'd never advocate alliance with racists. But I do think that anti-capitalists should seek to forge alliances on economic questions, disregarding what seem to me relatively minor differences.

I've said this before, but I think the "Left/Right" metaphor is obsolete. I think it should be replaced with "pro-" and "anti-capitalist."

For example, what makes you think that voting Exit was a "right-wing" thing to do?

 

[redsquirrel]

So in your view were Plaid Cymru hanging on the tailcoats of the right in May?

And what does get into bed with mean anyway? I totally dispute that by simply voting Leave people were getting into bed with the far right, that simply another way of phrasing the "leave=racist" nonsense.

As I said at then end of the above thread.

But there are other cases where I would not rule out working with such groups on a single issue. To take a hypothetical example, you're a socialist councillor, the local council is controlled by a Labour minority administration which is planning cuts to local services yet for reasons of their own the UKIP councillors are willing to vote against these cuts. In that situation I'd have no problem using UKIP against Labour to block cuts (though you'd be a fool to trust UKIP further than you could kick them of course).

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Oh for goodness' sake. There will be no second referendum so get over it. If the left doesn't move forward in a united front then it will not be able to shape the exit in any way. What is the point in the thread? What does it achieve other than continue this division that we are all in danger of side-tracking us? I won't claim to be innocent in this division, btw. I've been pretty argumentative myself over the past few days. But seriously, we need to stop this because its unhealthy and unproductive.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh for goodness' sake. There will be no second referendum so get over it. If the left doesn't move forward in a united front then it will not be able to shape the exit in any way. What is the point in the thread? What does it achieve other than continue this division that we are all in danger of side-tracking us? I won't claim to be innocent in this division, btw. I've been pretty argumentative myself over the past few days. But seriously, we need to stop this because its unhealthy and unproductive.

This is urban. What is the point of any of the threads?

 

[JimW]

This is just daft, the issue didn't belong to the right even if they overwhelmingly backed exit. If the BNP once had a whip round for the lifeboats.should I hope they sink?

 

[ska invita]

I dont want a second referendum
Im trying to learn something here....

 

[ska invita]

This is just daft, the issue didn't belong to the right even if they overwhelmingly backed exit. If the BNP once had a whip round for the lifeboats.should I hope they sink?

Ohay, so lifeboats is a subject that its okay to work with BNP on

 

[ska invita]

This is just daft, the issue didn't belong to the right even if they overwhelmingly backed exit.

may not have belonged to them but they owned it.

 

[mk12]

Someone on Twitter made an interesting point. The referendum wasn't so much about right v left, but social conservatives v social liberals. I think there's some truth to that.

 

[J Ed]

When aliens invade?

 

[Treacle Toes]

When the 'left' has become so extreme that they have become fascists too?

In short, never.

 

[ska invita]

So in your view were Plaid Cymru hanging on the tailcoats of the right in May?
.

Sorry, not familiar with this case - could you summarise it?

 

[redsquirrel]

Sorry, not familiar with this case - could you summarise it?

TBH I think the best summary is to read the thread, it's not that long. But basically PC had a sort of informal agreement to block the election of the Labour leader to the First Minister position.

 

[butchersapron]

Someone on Twitter made an interesting point. The referendum wasn't so much about right v left, but social conservatives v social liberals. I think there's some truth to that.

I don't think so - or if it is, it's about the effects of social-liberalism from above, in conditions of neo-liberalism where social solidarity (which traditionally largely came from left-wing/labour movement/union/work based roots) has been destroyed by those forces of neo-liberalism that the right wing remain socially-liberal vote represented. A fracturing social-liberalism based not on equality of choices but on the restriction of choice to ever fewer people. So not real social liberalism at all.There is no way to untie this from politics, from economics.

 

[ska invita]

TBH I think the best summary is to read the thread, it's not that long. But basically PC had a sort of informal agreement to block the election of the Labour leader to the First Minister position.

Will do - am at work so cant now and can only make trite points at the mo

This is a serious thread but apologies if ive set it off on a not serious enough tone.

I was also thinking about stuff that happened around the Iraq war with certain extremist muslim leaders etc.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

TBH I think the best summary is to read the thread, it's not that long. But basically PC had a sort of informal agreement to block the election of the Labour leader to the First Minister position.

bad misjudgement that, imo.

 

[redsquirrel]

When the 'left' has become so extreme that they have become fascists too?

In short, never.

Well surely it depends on what 'getting in to bed with' means, I mean the OP seems to be drawing it very wide indeed, in this case voting the same way. I mean take my hypothetical example, you wouldn't vote with UKIP to block Labour cuts at the council level?

 

[ska invita]

Well surely it depends on what 'getting in to bed with' means, I mean the OP seems to be drawing it very wide indeed, in this case voting the same way. I mean take my hypothetical example, you wouldn't vote with UKIP to block Labour cuts at the council level?

yeah apologies - rushed post in my lunchbreak and needs much better definition

 

[ska invita]

I mean take my hypothetical example, you wouldn't vote with UKIP to block Labour cuts at the council level?

Concrete examples like this are what the thread needs really....

 

[redsquirrel]

bad misjudgement that, imo.

In what way? For PC on a tactically level, I agree, on an ideological level, well as I said on that thread I'm more ambivalent.

 

[The39thStep]

When is it ok for the left, liberals and Tories and Mosleyites to get in the same bed?

 

[redsquirrel]

Will do - am at work so cant now and can only make trite points at the mo

This is a serious thread but apologies if ive set it off on a not serious enough tone.

No, I think the question is an interesting one and worth discussing. But we do need to think about the criteria here, what does working with mean? Are UKIP the same as the BNP? (In my opinion no, you seem to think yes?)

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Concrete examples like this are what the thread needs really....

What about voting to leave the EU on a long-standing belief about its undemocratic nature (A belief that existed prior to UKIP even existing)?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In what way? For PC on a tactically level, I agree, on an ideological level, well as I said on that thread I'm more ambivalent.

I said on the thread, I think. Tactically, yes, bad politics. Ideologically, also, tbh - for PC to be seen to be making arrangements with UKIP in order to sabotage a Labour administration makes no sense ideologically - it's the kind of thing someone without an ideology would do.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Well surely it depends on what 'getting in to bed with' means, I mean the OP seems to be drawing it very wide indeed, in this case voting the same way. I mean take my hypothetical example, you wouldn't vote with UKIP to block Labour cuts at the council level?

You wouldn't have to actually co-operate with UKIP to do that though.

 

[phildwyer]

Concrete examples like this are what the thread needs really....

Here's one. I'd have no problem working with Romantic or High Tory anti-capitalists. Would you? And if so, why?

 

[Pickman's model]

Here's one. I'd have no problem working with Romantic or High Tory anti-capitalists. Would you? And if so, why?

Easy to say that when you're unlikely to find any of them in your neck of the woods tho

 

[phildwyer]

Unlikely to find any of them in your neck of the woods tho

I'm in China, so you're probably right.

 

[redsquirrel]

You wouldn't have to actually co-operate with UKIP to do that though.

Well I hardly think voting the same way as UKIP in the referendum could be described as co-operating with them, but the OP seems to disagree (hope I'm not misrepresenting you ska invita)