What do you think happens after death?

[weltweit]

You're not inventing the unverifiable, but your woo mate is.

I think in the longer term there may be little that remains unverifiable.

Sure, science has yet to explain all manner of things, but the soul is not one of them. Neither is Satan or Santa Claus or ghosts or demons.

That in itself is quite a categorical statement. I am not interested in Satan and Santa Claus or demons but the varying concepts around some kind of soul do interest me.

 

[Pickman's model]

If we're really unlucky the deceased come here and burble on about shitty 90s bands

 

[weltweit]

Kevbad the Bad do you not wonder at the similarities of reported near death experiences?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I think in the longer term there may be little that remains unverifiable.

That in itself is quite a categorical statement. I am not interested in Satan and Santa Claus or demons but the varying concepts around some kind of soul do interest me.

If you take the Christian (most Christians) version of the soul then it will always be unverifiable. It just exists because God said so, and it's immortal too, so there, because that's what God says. Other versions of the soul exist. They have in common that they are different to each other, that their proponents assert their absolute validity, that they are impossible to prove or disprove and if you ever could disprove them (to the satisfaction of most rational people) their proponents would just tell you that you are wrong. Why should anyone get involved in such a hiding to nothing? Unless they were believers or being paid?

 

[weltweit]

If you take the Christian (most Christians) version of the soul then it will always be unverifiable. It just exists because God said so, and it's immortal too, so there, because that's what God says.

I don't believe in God, and if anything I believe that science will nibble away at religions more and more as science progresses.

Other versions of the soul exist. They have in common that they are different to each other, that their proponents assert their absolute validity, that they are impossible to prove or disprove and if you ever could disprove them (to the satisfaction of most rational people)

From my angle I think of a soul as perhaps being a life force which all living things have. And I think there will be a time when Science can explain it at least to my satisfaction.

Even people who believe in science (which I do) have to maintain an open mind for things that are as yet unproven but which might in time be proven.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Kevbad the Bad do you not wonder at the similarities of reported near death experiences?

Near death experiences is a term used for events which are not death experiences. No one reports on death experiences. Not their own ones. When some people believe they nearly died some of them report it in certain ways. That probably means no more than that our brains have limitations when trying to describe unusual events. If you think about some of your own memories you will realise that they are not honest and true, but constructs which our brains make to store information, e.g. viewing things which you were involved in from a third party perspective, seeing yourself wearing certain clothes which you may or may not have been wearing.

 

[mojo pixy]

If you take the Christian (most Christians) version of the soul then it will always be unverifiable. It just exists because God said so, and it's immortal too, so there, because that's what God says. Other versions of the soul exist. They have in common that they are different to each other, that their proponents assert their absolute validity, that they are impossible to prove or disprove and if you ever could disprove them (to the satisfaction of most rational people) their proponents would just tell you that you are wrong. Why should anyone get involved in such a hiding to nothing? Unless they were believers or being paid?

I don't believe in a soul, but I believe in consciousness, and in individual consciousness. What's that 'made from', in an entirely material universe? And what happens to it when the body it's held in, dies? Saying a soul doesn't exist, doesn't touch the heart of the matter really.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Nothing happens after death. It's probably something to do with being dead. The clue's in the name.

 

[mojo pixy]

Loads happens after death, just not to "me" any more

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I don't believe in God, and if anything I believe that science will nibble away at religions more and more as science progresses.

From my angle I think of a soul as perhaps being a life force which all living things have. And I think there will be a time when Science can explain it at least to my satisfaction.

Even people who believe in science (which I do) have to maintain an open mind for things that are as yet unproven but which might in time be proven.

Fair enough. You have yet another version of what a soul means. Scientists are going to be very busy trying to prove or disprove each and every individual belief on this matter. If your version doesn't include the immortality of individual souls then you mean something different to most religious believers. So perhaps you shouldn't use the word.

 

[weltweit]

If your version doesn't include the immortality of individual souls then you mean something different to most religious believers. So perhaps you shouldn't use the word.

Perhaps not.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I don't believe in a soul, but I believe in consciousness, and in individual consciousness. What's that 'made from', in an entirely material universe? And what happens to it when the body it's held in, dies? Saying a soul doesn't exist, doesn't touch the heart of the matter really.

I believe in varying states of consciousness too. I've tried a few. I can't explain that, but I don't make the claim of immortality. Nor that consciousness continues after death. It wasn't there before birth. Why should it continue?

 

[mojo pixy]

I believe in varying states of consciousness too. I've tried a few. I can't explain that, but I don't make the claim of immortality. Nor that consciousness continues after death. It wasn't there before birth. Why should it continue?

But it was, wasn't it? Unborn children sense, feel, and move about.

Before conception, ok no I recall nothing. But that still feels like it's missing some deeper point.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I don’t need this thread to plunge me into a deep existential crisis, I’m already in one and digging harder

 

[A380]

Life force leaves you then your midichlorians go off the scale.

 

[Wilf]

What, then, is "I"? I don't believe in a soul, but I believe in an "I". I believe that's what we're really interested in knowing - what happens to "me" when I die. "I" know what happens to the body after death, do I even know what happens to "me" while I sleep?

I think your take on 'I' and/or consciousness is the thing that determines this question. If consciousness/thought/identity are all evolutionary products, they they end on death. 'What happens when I die' is literally a non-question as there is no 'I' left. There might be residual chemical processes, but nothing akin to thinking, sense of self etc. You need a different take on 'I', a fundamentally religious or supernatural take, to even conceive of self after death.

Unless you are religious, death is not a state of being you could imagine. To quote that wanker Damient Hirst, there's an element of 'the physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.

 

[krtek a houby]

Save our souls

 

[yield]

I don’t need this thread to plunge me into a deep existential crisis, I’m already in one and digging harder

This too shall pass

I think your take on 'I' and/or consciousness is the thing that determines this question. If consciousness/thought/identity are all evolutionary products, they they end on death. 'What happens when I die' is literally a non-question as there is no 'I' left. There might be residual chemical processes, but nothing akin to thinking, sense of self etc. You need a different take on 'I', a fundamentally religious or supernatural take, to even conceive of self after death.

Unless you are religious, death is not a state of being you could imagine. To quote that wanker Damient Hirst, there's an element of 'the physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.

I find the idea of the discontinuous self difficult. Heidegger also a wanker called it being-toward-death

 

[mojo pixy]

I think your take on 'I' and/or consciousness is the thing that determines this question. If consciousness/thought/identity are all evolutionary products, they they end on death. 'What happens when I die' is literally a non-question as there is no 'I' left. There might be residual chemical processes, but nothing akin to thinking, sense of self etc. You need a different take on 'I', a fundamentally religious or supernatural take, to even conceive of self after death.

Unless you are religious, death is not a state of being you could imagine. To quote that wanker Damient Hirst, there's an element of 'the physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.

I really think, when we have some understanding of exactly what 'consciousness' is in actual material terms, we may begin to have a better idea how it forms, and what happens to it when a body no longer requires it. But that such a consciousness (whatever it's 'made from') should develop not only a sense of its surroundings, but a sense of its self, as distinct from others around it. Yes I agree, that still absolutely remains to be understood in any non-magical way.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

After all, Science can't yet even explain how birds are able to migrate thousands of miles and return to the same spot. Small birds like our Robin can do this.

They use physical clues (position of the Sun and Moon for example) and a magnetic compass system.

Bird migration is one of nature’s great wonders. Here’s how they do it.

Some fly 11 days nonstop. Others trek 8,000 miles. Each year, thousands of bird species leave home in search of food.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[Carl Steele]

This is an interesting discussion with the University of Virginia's Division of Perceptual Studies group. Although moderated by John Cleese it's a serious conversation. Science based. They suggest that what happens after death may not be the same for everyone. Some are reincarnated but most are not for example.

 

[Sprocket.]

A true account.
Following one of my operations in 2013 I had been in recovery then moved to a ward. Later as the surgeon was talking to me I became very ill, very quickly. The reason was I was bleeding out in my abdomen, the surgeon was dashing around the bed and lots of staff were doing what they did to keep me alive. I lost consciousness and I saw lots of shadowy figures and a very intense white, bright light. I woke up later in recovery, I had been back in surgery for three hours while the surgical and vascular team repaired the bleed. I was okay.
Later I told the doctors of my white light experience.
They fully assured me I was nowhere near death and the white light was most likely the cause due to the huge amount of fentanyl and ketamine in my system.

 

[Saul Goodman]

They use physical clues (position of the Sun and Moon for example) and a magnetic compass system.

Bird migration is one of nature’s great wonders. Here’s how they do it.

Some fly 11 days nonstop. Others trek 8,000 miles. Each year, thousands of bird species leave home in search of food.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Smoke and mirrors... They rely 100% on Google maps... satellite view.

 

[Johnny Doe]

No souls, no afterlife. When you die you become wormshit.

Reincarnation is load of crock as well. People have no memory of past lives, and you can tell that the people who claim that they do are lying, because they always claim to have been someone interesting in a previous life, rather than just Random Peasant #N. Notice how reincarnation has never contributed to our knowledge of past history, even though by all rights it absolutely should.

I think there are enough examples of evil people leading good lives and good people leading poor lives to conclusively destroy any notion the universe has a karmic aspect. In fact the notion of karma can be used to shore up social injustice and unearned privilege, after all if there's some form of natural justice in the universe, then all those rich and powerful folks "must" have somehow "earned" their blessed position in life.

Your best chance of being revived after being declared dead is the cryopreservation of your body (or at least your brain), and even then, it's a long shot with no guarantees. I don't think the vast majority of people produce enough data about themselves to have a copy of their ego reconstructed in the future. As such, any ancestor simulations of this period in the future are very unlikely to be have the granularity needed to accurately recreate the individual lives of most ordinary people living now.

The nearest thing to a record of your ego would be your social media accounts, so I expect lots of people to be reincarnated as motivational quotes

 

[Santino]

Heidegger also a wanker called it being-toward-death

I don't think that's what Heidegger meant by that term. Unless I've misunderstood you.

 

[kebabking]

I'm quite looking forward to the next stage...

I'm going to buried on a hillside in mid-Wales, my atoms will become grasses, flowers, trees, butterflies, sheep and cows, and eventually run into the River Wye (my favourite river) where I'll swim in cool waters, be Trout and Salmon, and then into the sea - I'll float past icebergs, become a shark, hear whalesong, and see freaky fish in the deep.

As for me, my soul, I'll be walking across short, close-cropped, springy turf with long views of mountains, the sea, and rolling hills. I'll meet friends and loved ones, but mostly I'll be alone, in peace and quiet.

 

[tony.c]

I'll swim in cool waters, be Trout and Salmon

And eaten by a seagull?

 

[Saul Goodman]

And eaten by a seagull?

They only eat junk food.

 

[bellaozzydog]

A true account.
Following one of my operations in 2013 I had been in recovery then moved to a ward. Later as the surgeon was talking to me I became very ill, very quickly. The reason was I was bleeding out in my abdomen, the surgeon was dashing around the bed and lots of staff were doing what they did to keep me alive. I lost consciousness and I saw lots of shadowy figures and a very intense white, bright light. I woke up later in recovery, I had been back in surgery for three hours while the surgical and vascular team repaired the bleed. I was okay.
Later I told the doctors of my white light experience.
They fully assured me I was nowhere near death and the white light was most likely the cause due to the huge amount of fentanyl and ketamine in my system.

I was involved in a very extended pre hospital advanced life support situation on a colleague last weekend which has somewhat altered my opinions of the liminal space between life and death

I ended up googling consciousness during CPR and the results tied with the two hour experience has fundamentally changed my view of what I do…. In particular the use of DNRs and whether aggressively chasing any minor/temporary positive “medical win” when the outcome is statistically terminal

I wasn’t even employed in a medical role at the time just no one else had any training other than first aid

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I don’t need this thread to plunge me into a deep existential crisis, I’m already in one and digging harder

it could be worse, you could be a cat