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*What book are you reading? (part 2)

TikkiB said:
Just finished Tracey's Thorn's autobiography which I really enjoyed, and now onto Nile Rodger's autobiography. I do like a bit of juxtapositioning when reading musicians' books - read Keith Richards immediately after Rod Stewart's last week, and I think I preferred RS's the more. Any man who has a chapter just about his hair isn't all bad.
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I like that Eric Heffer got a mention in Tracey Thorn's book.
 
About 6% through Confessio Amantis, and currently alternating it with The Norse Gods Ruined My Vacation
 
Almost finished Lady Sings the blues, Billie Holiday in her own words, its pretty amazing.:cool: There is a ghostwriter but was authenticated by Billie herself while she was alive (around '56). The back of it says 'told in Holiday's tart, streetwise style and hip patois, which makes it read as though it was written yesterday.' Kind of reminds me of 'Groupie' by Jenny Fabian, in that its a salty read that transports you right back to the time it was written, and puts you in a capsule you dont wanna leave.:cool:

Its also nice to see that Billie Holiday wasnt one who felt sorry for herself, but a strong person who is frank about her drugs problems and those with the law, which dogged her constantly...her life was difficult but the book is a triumph about one who loved life, and her philosophy being ''You've got to have something to eat, and a little love in your life before you can hold still for any damn body's sermon on how to behave.' :cool:. She also explains her singing style and how her big breaks came about despite the shocking racism she encountered. If you love jazz, read this.
 
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Hard Times - Charles Dickens. My first Dickens, love it and didn't realise it would be so funny. Wasn't expecting this style at all, thought it would be much more sombre.
 
ringo said:
Hard Times - Charles Dickens. My first Dickens, love it and didn't realise it would be so funny. Wasn't expecting this style at all, thought it would be much more sombre.
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I've never read any Dickens either, and I'm thinking that I really should
(especially as I can download it for free)
 
Dracula Cha Cha Cha


book 3 in the 'anno dracula' cycle. Its 1960s rome and high society gathers for vlad tepes latest marriage...
 
BoatieBird said:
I've never read any Dickens either, and I'm thinking that I really should
(especially as I can download it for free)
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Yep, always enjoyed the TV dramatisations and seems like a gap in my reading that will be rewarding. I have started on his smallest novel though :D
 
Travels with a Tangerine by Tim Mackintosh Smith described as 'a journey in the footnotes of Ibn Battutah' who left Tangiers in 1325 and travelled to many distant places.
I love travel books - finding it very interesting.
 
Has anyone read In Watermelon Sugar by Richard Brautigan?

I'll read with an open mind, but it does look like a load of bollocks (not that open obviously).
 
just started McKenzie Wark's The Beach Beneath the Street (the everyday life and glorious times of the Situationist International)

I've had it for a couple of years, should have started it sooner!
 
Liberty & Property by Ellen Meiksins Wood
Follows on from her book Citizens to Lords which I thought was very good. I've not read much of this one yet but it's been interesting so far.
 
Finished 'Female Chauvinist Pigs' last night, by Ariel Levy, and was deeply impressed with it. Been a long time since I read any feminist texts, and although this was published in 2006, it is still totally valid today, in fact, MORE SO today.

Loved how she identified the split between the sex-positive feminists and the radicals as being the basis of contemporary confusion over what actually constitutes empowerment. And - I reckon Autochthonous1 might like to give this a read.

As well as making me re-assess some of my own ideas and thoughts, she also had me actually laughing out loud on many occasions - what a brilliant writer she is! Funny, sharp, focussed, with a convincing dialectic - an absolute joy to read.

Off to the library lately to see if they've got anything on my list. Depressingly, the last 10 choices I entered onto the 'system' for all of St Helens stock came up with fuck all. They didn't even have any fucking Andrea Dworkin, or Adrienne Rich :confused::mad::(
 
sojourner said:
Finished 'Female Chauvinist Pigs' last night, by Ariel Levy, and was deeply impressed with it. Been a long time since I read any feminist texts, and although this was published in 2006, it is still totally valid today, in fact, MORE SO today.

Loved how she identified the split between the sex-positive feminists and the radicals as being the basis of contemporary confusion over what actually constitutes empowerment. And - I reckon Autochthonous1 might like to give this a read.

As well as making me re-assess some of my own ideas and thoughts, she also had me actually laughing out loud on many occasions - what a brilliant writer she is! Funny, sharp, focussed, with a convincing dialectic - an absolute joy to read.
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Funny you should mention me! I read Female Chauvinist Pig many years ago (when I identified as a feminist), about ten years ago, I think? I remember enjoying it, as a read. I'd have to re-read it as it was so long ago now, unfortunately I gave it to the mother of RaverDrew's children when I met her for the first time last year; she came over and we had a discussion about feminism actually. She picked that book off my shelf, so I said she could have it. Regret it now. :facepalm: I'll have to ask if she's read it yet so I can re-read it.
I remember liking the book at the time though. Yes, I do remeber the empowerment bit. Working in the sex industry, I can say I've only ever felt empowered (in fact, the sex industry changed me and my life for the better, not to mention taught me so much and changed my views). When feminists talk of the sex industry as disempowering or exploitative I won't listen to them unless they've actually worked in it, and I find it offensively patronising, naive too. The book made me feel better in some ways (for various reasons), I remember that - I read it whilst I was working in the industry. Though I remember some parts pissing me off, especially parts relating to gender; you know I have a thing about the binary, and this book wasn't panoptic enough in that respect. I also remember it had more of those stupid feminist terms that I despise like ''bimbo feminism.'' :facepalm:

But ta, you've reminded me I need to read it again.
 
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Wow, loved that it made you re-assess some of your own ideas and thoughts! Do tell! I do remember her raising some fantastic points: one's that I'd never come across or thought of.... ;)

I've just read the Wiki page to refresh my memory a bit. I remember the ''loophole women'' bit! I am one 80% of the time, apart from when I am out clubbing in my ''tranny with a fanny'' persona. :D
 
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Autochthonous1 said:
Wow, loved that it made you re-assess some of your own ideas and thoughts! Do tell! I do remember her raising some fantastic points: one's that I'd never come across or thought of.... ;)

I've just read the Wiki page to refresh my memory a bit. I remember the ''loophole women'' bit! I am one 80% of the time, apart from when I am out clubbing in my ''tranny with a fanny'' persona. :D
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Well, for quite a few years, I managed to convince myself that I should have been a boy. Since childhood, as it goes. Always felt like a boy, did not 'feel like' a girl, was painfully aware of huge differences between me and other girls, and was made more aware of it by them. Always fancied girls, never fancied boys. Had quite a bad identity crisis in my 30s over it. Read 'Stone Butch Blues', saw myself, shit myself! Was talked down off the ceiling by a dyke mate. Mulled it over all these years, and even though I knew gender was shaped by culture, still could not distance myself. Ashamed to say I have been really quite sexist to women in my thoughts over the years. Fancying the arses off them, whilst simultaneously feeling superior in my 'masculine' bubble - 'I'm not like those girly-girls'. That's a fucking big admission for me to make actually. Deeply shaming, for someone who considers herself a strong feminist. And I saw myself in Levy's trouncing of those identities, of those feelings.

I wholeheartedly agreed with her perspective on the whole thing btw. I'd love for you to read it again - would like to discuss further with you about empowerment. Thought she made tremendously good points about that. Questions like how is it empowering to emulate a porn model/stripper/sex worker, whose job it is to fake sexuality/sexual pleasure? How is drunkenly leaping around flashing your tits, or stripping off (all with eager male viewers) suddenly a new feminism, when before it was objectification of women - the exact same actions? How exactly does that empower women?

I was struck by the overwhelming flavour of the responses that all the women she interviewed gave, about having lots of sex. I don't remember one of them saying they were having really good sex. It was all mediocre, antiseptic, average. The only thing they got out of it was a feeling of strength from 'acting like a man'.

I hear what you're saying about binary, but I also believe we HAVE to have an understanding of the 'female' in feminism, because without that we do not have a definition against which to show inequality/injustice/oppression. To show that women are being oppressed, you have to show women. I have a female body - because of that female body, I have been stopped from doing many things. Jobs I wanted (and from legal positions I've been stopped), teams I wanted to join, buying a fucking PINT ffs - there's a whole long list of stuff, a lifetime's worth. I come up against very aggressive male attitudes all the time in my job. Some more honest men have admitted to me that they don't like being told what to do by a woman - they don't like being told no, in any shape or form.

You have to identify the person/group/minority whose lives/behaviour are being controlled and shaped by an external group. And although it's not the same thing, it's the same reasoning behind recognising colour in opposing racism.
 
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Autochthonous1 said:
When feminists talk of the sex industry as disempowering or exploitative I won't listen to them unless they've actually worked in it, and I find it offensively patronising, naive too.
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This bit sounds wrong-headed to me, it'd be like saying you can't speak out against sweat-shops unless you've worked in one yourself, or you can't more generally talk about X unless you are/have done X.
 
Wow, interesting stuff, sojourner, enjoyed reading that, great honesty, thank you. Yes, I really will read it again. Not only was it a long while ago that I read it but I've changed a lot since then, as my views have.
Ahhh, so you were a bit of a ''loophole women'' too then! I too was painfully aware of differences between me and other girls as a child, my best friend was a tomboy, she would get mistaken for a boy, which we both loved. I've always wondered if this is the reason I am now so attracted to androgyny, and ''boyish'' women. I thought I was skoliosexual for a few years and only went out with trans* women. During this time I was fascinated by gender and could then make sense of my time in the sex industry a little more. Going out with trans* women I met many cis-men who went out with trans* women, and learnt lots there too. I was on a trans* forum (cross between Urban 75 and FB, but for trans people and trans ''admirers' :D), I had photos of myself on there - each day I would get numerous messages from men telling me (after I told them I was cisgendered) that ''if you had a cock you'd be the perfect woman''. My mind was blown, and I loved it. :) I'm in my 30's and like you were, I can be quite sexist towards women in my thoughts
whilst simultaneously feeling superior in my 'masculine' bubble
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EXACTLY! I'm still a bit of a ''loophole'' woman (even though you know I despise these silly terms). I hate girly-girls, I just do... Well, not them, but their girly-girls-ness!
That's a fucking big admission for me to make actually. Deeply shaming, for someone who considers herself a strong feminist. And I saw myself in Levy's trouncing of those identities, of those feelings.
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Well done, love your honesty.

I get what you're saying about
understanding of the 'female' in feminism, because without that we do not have a definition against which to show inequality/injustice/oppression. To show that women are being oppressed, you have to show women. You have to identify the person/group/minority whose lives/behaviour are being controlled and shaped by an external group.
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I just don't think there is a need to focus on ''female'' anymore, and believe that to be hindering. All people can be oppressed. Cisgenderd men around the world, are oppressed also. And trans* men and women and intersex people are *generally* more oppressed than ciswomen (in the western world), yet many of the people who identify as those don't even feel included in, or spoken for by feminism (I'm generalising there, I know). I think feminism and its language is counterproductive regarding the changes I'd like to see. Y'know, many people don't even know what feminism actually is-it's that messed up - men, women trans*, whoever...it pisses people off, causes so many divides, feminist argue with feminists, feminists write with such biphobic/pansphobic/transphobic stances... men feel ''hated'', and yeah that is not feminism's fault (there will always be ignorant people who can't be bothered to educate themselves). I just feel the movement is no longer moves things forward, but backwards (in the western world, I guess). I think there are too many negative aspects, I also worry about feminism and younger women - like religion, if it gives you strength and helps you feel powerful/fulfilled/worthy, that's a good thing, but it can also stop you from thinking for yourself.
I just don't like to focus on women. I just wouldn't. I don't want ''male and female'' I don't want ''woman''. I truly wish I was more able to explain this all better. Maybe I need to read more. I have a transwoman friend who's doing a Phd atm about much of this stuff and she's rather inspirational to me, I'd talk to het more but she's too damn busy acing her dissertation! :(:D
*May I ask others to NOT quote that section as I'm done with talking about feminism on here and like I said; I'd like to be able to back up my beliefs better but feel I can't right now as not in right headspace, insomnia, having issues expressing myself fully. Sticking to less heavy threads.

Going back to your post, the book, well, when I was a stripper/pornstar I was not emulating sex workers; I was one, and I wasn't faking sexuality; I was celebrating it. As for faking sexual pleasure, yes I was - that was nothing to do with feminism or empowerment or exploitation. It was a job. That's all. Sex work should be decriminalised/legalised, everywhere! I was indeed faking the look though, for the job - people do that everyday in other professions too. It's not sex or having lots of it (I've never actually ''slept around'') that has ever made me feel powerful, or ''feel like a man'', that would only make me feel rubbish, personally. The strength I got was from the freedom of the industry, I wasn't trapped in conventional norms, and societal judgement actually made me stronger, the strength and freedom allowed me to express myself and play around with gender and sexuality, learn more about myself and others. I don't think drunkenly leaping around flashing your tits, or stripping off for men is feminism at all, how can it be? Being a massive 90's punk fan (my fav bands L7 and Hole and others) were all stripping off whilst subverting the female archetype, it's powerful, it's strength; it's a big ''fuck you/you can't tell me what to be/how to act'' to society. At that time, over here in the UK we had ''ladette culture'' which was like the punk ''anti-feminine/vulnerable'' but err, far less coooool and meaningful and w/o music ;) - it involved acting like a vile stereotype of a man, that was the same time as the stripclub boom in the 90's, these turned men AND women into knobs, but made a lot of people a lot of money. :facepalm: Yep, loads of interesting topics and questions. I'll try get a copy of the book soon, so we can talk more as I only remember sections of it. :)
 
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TruXta said:
This bit sounds wrong-headed to me, it'd be like saying you can't speak out against sweat-shops unless you've worked in one yourself, or you can't more generally talk about X unless you are/have done X.
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Nah, the difference is, who LIKES working in, and feels EMPOWERED by working in a sweatshop? Get what I mean? Also, I've never worked in a sweatshop. And ''speaking out''... well, yeah, speaking out against actual exploitation within the industry is a good thing, of course, as the genuinely exploited are voiceless. I was talking more about the feminists who attempt to talk about strippers and pornstars who are there by choice...when they've actually no clue, as they've not experienced it, also if you are not in the industry it's likely you've not got the mind/mindset for it, so you're bound to have different views.

*I'll say it again; I'm done with talking about feminism on here unless via PM. I appreciate I've talked a lot here and you may want to quote me but if it's about feminism I'd prefer to do it via PM or else I spend too much time on here (which I don't want). I will happily talk about my experiences in the sex industry, and views about gender norms/binary openly on here though. :)
 
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Okay, I won't quote you Autochthonous1 but there's much there to be unravelled. Could do it by email if you fancied. I don't know what you mean by 'unconducive' though - guessing you mean opposite of conducive, but it's not a word, and if you did mean it that way, conducive to what, exactly?

No I didn't mean YOU or other sex-workers emulating sex-workers, I meant young women doing it. And that's the point - they are emulating people who are faking sexual pleasure, who are dressed like that in order to titillate. Precisely. It's your job. It's not THEIRS though. And you have agreed with me about how flashing your tits etc (the Girls Gone Wild programme was referenced a lot for this) is not feminism at all.

Societal judgement made you stronger? There's misfit talk ;) Know that one.

There will always be conflict in any 'movement' I guess. I'd say an awful lot of young women these days reject outright the notion of 'feminism' though - I don't see them as clinging to it without thought at all - quite the opposite - they are REJECTING it without any thought. Whenever women have come to 'feminism' (umbrella term), it's usually been via bitter experience of being a woman just trying to get along in this world, and having real problems solely due to them having female bodies. Really not that long ago that pregnant women were instantly sacked from their jobs for being pregnant. Columbia University only allowed women to be educated there in 1983. I was 15 in 1983. It's all still fresh and raw for me.
 
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