quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
Yes. Fair enough.
Universities
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Yes. Fair enough.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
For instance, there are more international (non-EU) students at the University of Edinburgh than Scottish ones, all paying £30-50,000 p.a. plus accommodation costs. This is a larger cohort than the EU students, and almost as big as the combined UK one, which includes fee-paying students from England.
(ETA: last bit about combined UK looks like a stretch.)
(ETA: last bit about combined UK looks like a stretch.)
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
What's your source for 20/21 student numbers?
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
I found stats on my phone. They may not be most recent, and not sure if they were all students or undergrads. As one of the more prestigious universities, Edinburgh might be a bit of an outlier, but the broad point still stands that fees have also become a big part of the balance sheet North of the border.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
By my back of a smartphone estimation International students at Uni of Edinburgh might be worth around half a billion quid per year to the Scottish economy, most of which goes directly through the University coffers.
(New school US billion, so just £300-600 Million)
(New school US billion, so just £300-600 Million)
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So more there might be than there are, the latest figures I can find being from last academic year and the final ones for enrolled students for this year very unlikely to be available to the university yet let alone the wider public
hegley
never odd or even
And yet they're just going through a round of voluntary redundancies because the books don't balance.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
While the claim about international students has been set aside in favour of the point the unis rely in part on fees
Astonishing
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
What is your point? I was responding to the claim that Scottish universities haven't been marketised because some students don't pay fees, by demonstrating the extent to which overseas student fees are part of their business model. This context helps explain why they are now scrambling around to keep business running, so far as possible.
miss direct
misfungled
I feel sorry for English students at Scottish universities, must be really grating to know that your Greek/French/EU classmates pay a fraction what you pay. /offtopic.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you may have a point
but you undermine it by relying on assumptions which in the current situation are mere conjecture
the accom charges paid for example
a friend at ucl tells me the college is turning hundreds of rooms in halls into study spaces for students as so many haven't been taken up by new students
lots of international students haven't come to campus but are studying from abroad
I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if the same was true in Edinburgh and Glasgow, that for many students fees might be coming in but not rents.
And to headline your point with a claim you admit to have effectively plucked out of the air doesn't fill me with confidence in the remainder of the argument
Frankly a better, simpler and more honest argument to support your thesis would have been that throughout the UK before devolution, when no domestic undergraduates paid fees, overseas students were prized because of the fees they could be charged and great efforts made to secure them. Nothing has changed.
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
If anyone's interested, you can check student numbers for any university up to 2018-19, including things like domicile and sex, or level of UG/PG study here: Where do HE students study? | HESA
For Edinburgh University the figures are:
Potentially interesting for anyone wondering what kind of students universities are making the majority of their income from.
For Edinburgh University the figures are:
Potentially interesting for anyone wondering what kind of students universities are making the majority of their income from.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh
Potentially
What kind of students did you find Edinburgh are making the majority of their income from? That's a big claim as in 2017/18 their income was £984m, do you really think international students pay £500m?
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Haven't really thought about it - I figured I would post up the definitive source for anyone wondering where to find that kind of data.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Soz, I edited to point out their income 2 years back was the best part of £1bn and I doubt £500m comes from international students
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
Looks like I misread some unclear stats from the University website that included EU students within international, as well as counting them separately. In any case, you're still looking at a minimum of £300,000 of fees from international (non EU) students alone. Visa requirements estimate living costs as another £120,000,000--so around a half a billion for the Scottish economy most of it going through the University seems fair to me as a back of a smartphone estimate. The Scottish Funding Council's total budget is less than £2,000,000,000 for all Scottish Universities.
ETA: all I'm trying to do with these ball parker figures is back up chilango's point that even though Scottish undergraduates don't pay fees, market forces are still at play there too... I'm not so sure what's so controvertial about that claim.
ETA: all I'm trying to do with these ball parker figures is back up chilango's point that even though Scottish undergraduates don't pay fees, market forces are still at play there too... I'm not so sure what's so controvertial about that claim.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Is 300k + 120000k 500000k?
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Back of a fag packet calculations, but assuming 10,000 students from outside the EU, that's about £200m from tuition fees. Add in any accommodation charges they pay and you can chuck another few million on top of that. Probably not that close to £500m, but still a sizeable chunk.
I think eoin_k has overestimated the fees paid by international students though. Nowhere near £30-50k a year for most of them except medicine and veterinary students.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Anyway he in UK marketised in many ways before 1997 so would be very surprised if Scottish he had become more social since then
I'm kind of surprised at the number of NI students. It was admittedly quite a long time ago but when I went there, there were absolutely loads. (Or maybe they're there on Irish passports to save on the fees..?)
Yu_Gi_Oh
天天好心情
A lot of my students who would have gone to do postgrad in the USA are now rapidly reapplying to the UK. There seems to be a feeling that we're in better shape, or I dunno, less hostile to Chinese people, but I think surely that since American colleges are still online, they'd be a better bet. In-person learning in the UK doesn't seem like a great idea right now.
What do you guys think? Would you prefer online teaching with a US college or face to face in the UK?
What do you guys think? Would you prefer online teaching with a US college or face to face in the UK?
maomao
普費斯
I think NZ and Australia would be looking very attractive.
not for much longer though
cybershot
Well-Known Member
An American view on the UK situation
www.nytimes.com
‘It Really Was Abandonment’: Virus Crisis Grips British Universities (Published 2020)
With no bailout forthcoming from the government, financially strapped British universities beckoned students back to campus, with predictably dire results.
Fees were the bit of the 2011 Act that didn't really work, weren't they. The fee cap was set at 9k (then) on the assumption some places would be able to do it for less ,but the economics of that just don't stack up so everyone went straight to the cap and the price competition they aimed at hasn't materialised. In terms of disrupting the sector the student number caps coming off in 2014 was what really made the difference.
Of course, the same act also opened the 'market' up to new providers who, focusing on a few profitable subjects and without the real estate costs, bureaucracy, staffing levels (and pension liabilities) and union presence of the established universities might be able to compete on price, but so far the economics of setting up a new institution haven't worked except in a few small cases. I wonder if the demographic uplift coming down the line might begin to change that in the next decade. They certainly wouldn't have difficulty finding staff, given the extent of the redundancies planned and happening across the sector at the moment.
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
On one hand it looks like my students are a combination of sensible /working from bed as I had 0 joining me on campus today. They all opted for online
Wish I'd known that before I doped my self up with nurofen (roof uodate:
I mean toofache) and went in
When I saw all online...they checked in but only 5 actually interacted with me....
Wish I'd known that before I doped my self up with nurofen (roof uodate:
I mean toofache) and went in When I saw all online...they checked in but only 5 actually interacted with me....
Well, same things regarding Scottish students who choose to go to university in England. They will pay the big fees.
If you are sad about this, the answer is to complain to whatever collection of abbreviations is in charge of England at present, or to complain to your MP and to encourage all friends and acquaintances to join in your campaign.
miss direct
misfungled
Yes, but they have the choice to stay in Scotland and have no fees, whereas English students don't, from the looks of it. Just seems very unfair. As I'm not a student, nor do I have children who are students, and have a lot of other stuff to deal with at the moment, I'm not going to start a campaign about this.
