Tunisia - working class revolt

[elbows]

What is not accepted is your crude list of political positions that you apparently assume are a basic given for islamist political parties.

 

[1%er]

What is not accepted is your crude list of political positions that you apparently assume are a basic given for islamist political parties.

Can you provide me with the name of an Islamist political party that does not have those as policies in one form or another?

It isn't my list by the way

 

[elbows]

No chance, since I already mentioned the variations in how Sharia law is applied for a start, so even if you can demonstrate that the list has some truth to it, its made stupid by failing to acknowledge the wide array of realities that such principals actually morph into when applied pragmatically.

 

[1%er]

No chance, since I already mentioned the variations in how Sharia law is applied for a start, so even if you can demonstrate that the list has some truth to it, its made stupid by failing to acknowledge the wide array of realities that such principals actually morph into when applied pragmatically.

You think it is the government that is responsible for the administration and application of Sharia law?

 

[elbows]

They can certainly heavily influence quite how far various principals of Sharia law are applied to the countries legal system, especially at a time when they are tasked with drafting a constitution.

 

[1%er]

They can certainly heavily influence quite how far various principals of Sharia law are applied to the countries legal system, especially at a time when they are tasked with drafting a constitution.

But if you look at the list it doesn't mention Sharia law, the phrase in the list is this, "That the ideology that guides society must conform to the Islamic sharia"

I'm sure you well understand that Islamic sharia encompasses far more than a legal system, where the list does mention law it is this context "The active assertion and promotion of beliefs, prescriptions, laws or policies that are held to be Islamic in character"

So I think you are wrong in claiming Sharia law makes any difference to the list

 

[1%er]

I don't really know enough about the former parties to say really. I'd put them nearer to the turkish parties if pushed.

Can I take it that your personal view is that Hizb al-Nahda are not an Islamist party?

[quote="butchersapron]They also decided not to define themselves as islamist but as arab nationalists with a islamic frame of reference[/quote]

It doesn't really matter what they claim to be it is what they are perceived to be by others that is important, after all the BNP don't call themselves a fascist party but are perceived as such by many.

 

[butchersapron]

They also decided not to define themselves as islamist but as arab nationalists with a islamic frame of reference

It doesn't really matter what they claim to be it is what they are perceived to be by others that is important, after all the BNP don't call themselves a fascist party but are perceived as such by many.

Of course it matters in giving an indication of who they're trying to appeal to and how, not to mention what it says abotut he poltical sea they're forced to operate in. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with it 100%, but it does mean something - as does the BNPs refusal to call themselves fascists

Look, if you think they call themselves moderate islamists rather than islamic arab nationalists and that moderate islamism is an impossibility, that it must really be a variant of some form of extremism then can you make that case please?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Is she that one out of the En Dubs?

 

[1%er]

Of course it matters in giving an indication of who they're trying to appeal to and how, not to mention what it says abotut he poltical sea they're forced to operate in. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with it 100%, but it does mean something - as does the BNPs refusal to call themselves fascists

Look, if you think they call themselves moderate islamists rather than islamic arab nationalists and that moderate islamism is an impossibility, that it must really be a variant of some form of extremism then can you make that case please?

As I have said above it is the article that claims they are "moderate Islamist", I asked what is meant by that term and listed some key principles of what makes a party Islamist?

I think any political system that is dominated to such an extent by religion of whatever faith is going to be extremist in political terms, I wouldn't limit it to Islam.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, and you haven't yet dealt with the points in response to that. You haven't responded to the fact that these are a list of characteristics of some islamists parties at certain times in certain contexts not characteristics of all islamist parties at all time, and more importantly that we're really talking about an islamic party not an islamist one here.

 

[1%er]

Yes, and you haven't yet dealt with the points in response to that.

sorry what haven't i dealt with?

 

[butchersapron]

See the edit above.

 

[1%er]

Yes, and you haven't yet dealt with the points in response to that. You haven't responded to the fact that these are a list of characteristics of some islamists parties at certain times in certain contexts not characteristics of all islamist parties at all time, and more importantly that we're really talking about an islamic party not an islamist one here.

I was trying to find out what makes a party Islamist, while I was reading I came across a number of underlying principles that seem to define a party as Islamist, I listed just 4. I am sure there are similar list if one were to search for what underlying principles define a socialists or fascists party. Politics evolves these are guiding principles/policies not ridged political policies.

I understand the difference between an Islamic party and an Islamist party, you clearly see them as the former, I haven't made up my mind as yet, I think it is far to early for that.

 

[frogwoman]

The article starts with the phrase "moderate Islamist", is that not an oxymoron?

I am not sure from reading the article what they mean by "moderate Islamist".

Do they mean they are moderate politically or do they mean they are moderate when compared to other Islamist parties.

For a political party to be considered Islamist they must have certain political philosophies, not least:
That Islam should guide social, political and personal life
That the ideology that guides society must conform to the Islamic sharia
They want a cultural differentiation from the Western world and reconnection of the per-colonial symbolic Islamic world
The active assertion and promotion of beliefs, prescriptions, laws or policies that are held to be Islamic in character

I know of no political party that is considered Islamist, that doesn't have the above as a basis for their policies. I believe Hizb al-Nahda are considered "moderate" solely because they advocated democracy, unlike many other Islamist.

Hizb al-Nahda or the Renaissanca Party as they are also called, were inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood and place Islamic sharia at the top of their agenda.

It begs the question, how much freedom has really been won by the people of Tunisia?

its the old tension between "reformism" and "revolution" again isn't it. There is every reason why a party could say that it was radical Islamist and not be that in practice, for example, to win votes but reassure business/foreign allies at the same time, or to keep (or appear to keep) the social welfare programmes/the moral conservatism of Islamism, but not wish to anger important sections of the population (the working class, many of whom, especially in palestine and the south east asian countries) are a lot less "conservative" in terms of women wearing the hijab, alcohol, etc than hardcore islamists would like, the middle class, who may be even less so), business interests, organised labour etc (especially if the party came to power on a wave of anger against the previous government) the west/israel etc ... There are also likely to be internal tensions within the party itself - for example, the dynamic of modern capitalism where it would be detrimental to have women/minorities not in the workplace, versus the traditionalists/hard-liners (and what constitutes hard-liners anyway, especially in a country with religious/cultural tensions?) There's also the fact that in, for example, Turkey, where an Islamist party did come to power a few years ago, the religious policies, the increased expectation of women to wear hijabs etc, combined with increased neo-liberalism and privatisation, is creating huge anxiety among some sections of society, at least according to people I know from there. Given that the majority of people in the Middle East are not Islamists, and given the long and violent history of islamism vs secularism in the region, I think that any party trying to impose a regime which was based on the "law of god" would face a long and violent struggle, especially in a country where the president had been overthrown by a partial revolution. it's completely possible that they would want to avoid that.

 

[elbows]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/11/20111119191238366382.html

Some more interesting detail in the full article but I shouldn't paste the whole thing.

Hamadi Jebali of the Islamist Ennahdha party appeared poised to become Tunisia's new prime minister in the first elected government to emerge from the regional uprisings now known as the Arab Spring.

In a deal struck by the three main parties on Saturday, and to be officially unveiled on Monday, Jebali will take the premier's post while Moncef Marzouki of the Congress for the Republic Party (CPR), will become president, party sources said.

Mustapha Ben Jaafar, of the third-largest party Ettakatol, will occupy the third key post, president of the constituent assembly. All three appointments are subject to the approval of the assembly itself when it holds its first meeting on Tuesday.

News of the appointments were confirmed by key figures in the three-party negotiations, including senior CPR figure Abdelwaheb Matar and a senior Ettakatol figure who preferred to remain anonymous.

Historic vote

The deal followed Tunisia's democratic elections nine months after the January overthrow of dictator Zine el Abidine Ben Ali, the first ruler toppled in the so-called Arab Spring.

The October 23 poll, the first held as a result of the revolts that have shaken the region, gave Ennahdha the most seats in the 217-strong constituent assembly, with 89.

They were followed by the left-wing nationalist CPR with 29 seats, and the leftist Ettakatol party with 20.
Jebali, 63, is the moderate deputy leader of Ennahdha, whose leader, Rachid Ghannouchi, is associated with a more hardline position on Islam.

Jebali's credibility comes, in part, from the fact that he spent 15 years in Ben Ali's jails. He speaks fluent French and has been at pains to allay fears that his party wants to impose an intolerant brand of Islam.

He stumbled in that task last Sunday, alarming some observers with a reference to "the caliphate", a historic, pan-Islamist system of government based on sharia law.

 

[butchersapron]

One year on.

Mohamed Bouazizi

 

[Divisive Cotton]

One year on lets hope it doesn't turn out like this:

 

[elbows]

Not the prettiest statue/monument I ever saw but oh what it represents.

 

[butchersapron]

Secular Tunisians march against calls for Islamic state

TUNIS: Thousands of secular Tunisians marched in the capital Tuesday, the country’s Independence Day, to show their rejection of growing calls by conservative Salafist Islamists to transform post-revolutionary Tunisia into an Islamic state.

Carrying Tunisia’s red and white flag, several thousand protesters filled Bourguiba Avenue, a focal point of protests that ousted strongman Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali on Jan. 14 last year and sparked the Arab Spring uprisings.

“We came in our thousands to say to those who want to change the course of the revolution that we will confront you,” said rights activist Jaber Ben Hasan, amid chants of “the people want a civil state.”

“We are here to bring victory to the civil state,” he said, referring to a state that was not governed by religious law.

​

 

[butchersapron]

...and here's the top-down political mirror of this response:

Tunisia's secular opposition unites against Islamists

Opposition parties in Tunisia's constituent assembly merge into blocs to challenge ruling Islamist party Ennahda and fight for a secular state

 

[1%er]

So they are islamist and not arab nationalists, glad that's been cleared up

 

[butchersapron]

Neither Allah, Nor Master - well worth a read/look, and not for the reasons you may expect. Best summed up by this "an interesting look into the dynamics of discussion in an Arab Muslim nation."

 

[butchersapron]

Sidi Bouzid stages General Strike in response to Ennahda’s repression

SIDI BOUZID (Tunisia) - Residents of Sidi Bouzid, the central Tunisian town where the 2011 uprising began, staged a general strike on Tuesday, with hundreds protesting against the ruling Islamist party, a journalist reported.

Offices and shops were shut in the town centre, although some butchers stayed open to allow customers to prepare for the iftar evening meal, when Muslims break their day-long fast during Ramadan.

Several hundred protesters -- members the political opposition and trade unions, as well as civil society groups and employer organisations -- marched together towards the court house on the outskirts of Sidi Bouzid.

They shouted slogans including: "The people want the fall of the regime!" and "Justice, woe to you, Ennahda has power over you!" in reference to the Islamist party that heads the ruling coalition after winning elections last October

The Islamist-led government has faced growing dissent in recent weeks, with thousands of people demonstrating in the capital late on Monday for women's rights in the biggest show of force by the opposition since April.

Sidi Bouzid is where the uprising began that eventually toppled former president Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and touched off the Arab Spring, when a street vendor immolated himself in December 2010 in protest over his own precarious livelihood.

The town is located in a particularly marginalised region, and analysts warn that poor living conditions and high youth unemployment there and elsewhere -- driving factors behind the revolution -- have improved little since then.

 

[JimW]

Interesting article on the growing role of the UGTT (Tunisian General Labour Union), makes them sound like a mythical 'TUC getting off its knees': http://mondediplo.com/2012/11/03tunisia

 

[butchersapron]

Siliana

Protesters from the impoverished town, 120 kilometres (75 miles) southwest of Tunis, told AFP they would continue their agitation until governor Ahmed Ezzine Mahjoubi steps down, police repression ends and a development programme for the region is put in place.

More than 300 people have been wounded since Tuesday when the protesters first took to the streets of Siliana, sparking clashes with police.

The streets of the town were on Friday littered with stones, charred remains of barricades made from burnt tyres, while residents also set up road blocks on the highway leading to Tunis, according to AFP reporters.

"We will undertake a symbolic march to show the determination of the people against (economic) marginalisation," UGTT secretary general Nejib Sebti told AFP as he urged the crowd to march "quietly and peacefully".

He said a delegation from Sidi Bouzid the birthplace of the revolution that saw the exit of former strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and launched Arab Spring uprisings across the region was expected to arrive later Friday.

Getting towards that time of year again.

 

[elbows]

Union members attacked with knives and sticks by pro-government supporters/islamists in the capital.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20591728

 

[teqniq]

Tunisian opposition leader shot dead

A Tunisian opposition party leader who had been critical of the Islamist-led government and radical Muslim violence has been shot dead.

Chokri Belaid, leader of the Unified Democratic Nationalist party, was shot outside his home in Tunis on Wednesday morning and died in hospital shortly after.

President Moncef Marzouki cut short a visit to France and cancelled a trip to Egypt scheduled for Thursday after the killing, which triggered a 1,000-strong protest outside the interior ministry.

Chanting for the fall of the Islamist-led government, demonstrators shouted "Shame, shame Chokri died", "Where is the government?", and "The government should fall".

The prime minister, Hamadi Jebali, who heads the Ennahda party-led government, which won Tunisia's first post-Arab spring election in 2011, said: "The murder of Belaid is a political assassination and the assassination of the Tunisian revolution. By killing him they wanted to silence his voice."...

 

[butchersapron]

Going to be big and messy next few days, huge crowds out already, just seen massive one on Twitter.

 

[butchersapron]