Trump comes to town, 13th July 2018 - mass protests expected

[redsquirrel]

But doesn't to my mind greatly matter where it has come from if it serves as a vehicle to further progressive agendas.<snip> But the more reactionary views will be heard less than those of groups like cw: the demonstration could act as a fillip for domestic dissent.

I completely agree with the first sentence, my problem is that I am extremely skeptical that this protest will act as a vehicle to further progressive agendas. I think voices like CW will be drowned out (as has happened in the protests against Trump elsewhere in the world).

 

[cantsin]

All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.

maybe not the protest in isolation, but multiple poll tax protests, climaxing with the big one ( and after the long building non payment campaign) , helped end the Poll Tax , and arguably Thatchers tenure

 

[chilango]

You can't isolate the Poll Tax rioters from the community based movement that it came from. The networks of solidarity, mutual aid and mass defiance. That were everywhere. Even in my corner of rural North Wales.

As a comparuson for this anti-Trump things it's way off. So way off as to be meaningless.

And this is where I disagree with Pickman's model.

I do believe it matters where it comes from. What's led to it. That not only "sets the tone" but provides the infrastructure (or lack of it) crucial to anything that might follow it.

 

[Mordi]

All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.

I'm with you on this, but the adventurist in me says that when things have been different in my experience it's 'cos folk have prepared. For all the tedium of a-b strolls occasionally individuals can break free from the overwhelming powerlessness these events can instill.

The importance of solid campaigning and organising can't be overstated in creating the conditions and I think most are right to suspect that a mass of liberals is unlikely to produce the powder keg, but who knows. Trump is certainly emotive enough to get people worked up.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

When thinking about ‘what will the protest achieve?’ we ought not merely concern ourselves with its concrete outcomes (which are often very difficult to measure anyhow) but also with its expressive and communicative aspects too (see Expressive and instrumental actions).

It seems that, in addition to concerns about the lack of positive concrete outcomes from the protest, the worry of some on this thread is that the expressive and communicative aspects of the protest will be dominated by problematic voices that will render it counter-productive. This is not something I am overly concerned with myself, but if it were I wouldn’t think the appropriate response would be to not attend the protests, which seems to be a form of surrender. Instead surely one ought to show up with their own comrades, their own banners, and their own literature to make the presence felt and their arguments heard? That is, unless they think the State visit of the UK’s most powerful ally — who also happens to be the leader of the sole world superpower and a megalomaniacal racist and misogynist to boot - isn’t worthy of any political response?

 

[redsquirrel]

I’m not going to be so dismissive in advance of the nature of the demo or of the people who attend it,

So at which anti-Trump protests has “hell been raised”? Is the participation/organisation of large sections of the establishment more or less likely to cause things to kick off or not? What about the fact that this (like the anti-Bush protests) is likely to attract people from all over the political spectrum?

It’s not dismissive to look at the evidence and to conclude that the likelihood of people "raising hell" is low.

And calling it a ‘fair’ is condescending and arrogant, it’s people exercising their democratic voice against the State visit of a wannabe tyrant who promotes nazis and brags about sexually abusing women. That’s a good thing right?

Is it? Always and forever? Is protesting against British military action in Syria a good thing if it ends up providing cover and/or support for conspiraloon pro-Assad filth? Is protesting against leaving the EU a good thing it it involves defending/supporting the EU? Not in my view. Likewise if protests against Trump end up providing support to the Lab/LD/Con politicians that are responsible for policies that have damaged society for the last 30+ years then I don't think that's a good thing. Now in the case of these protests I don’t think they will do that, I just don’t think they’ll lead anywhere - good or bad.

But anti-Trumpism as politics, like anti-Bushism and anti-UKIPism before it, is harmful. It shuts down any alternative to (neo)liberalism and strengthens the very people that are responsible for the politics that led to Trumps election. You only have to glance at the Trump threads on these boards to see the regressive politics that is anti-Trumpism.

 

[Pickman's model]

I completely agree with the first sentence, my problem is that I am extremely skeptical that this protest will act as a vehicle to further progressive agendas. I think voices like CW will be drowned out (as has happened in the protests against Trump elsewhere in the world).

The sun iirc printed the class war keep it spikey leaflet in its entirety, getting it out to an audience of millions who wouldn't otherwise have seen it (Nov 1994). Few journalists are interested in liberal demonstrators, the reactionary voices (by contrast with @ists) I meant above. It's by no means a given or an end that much publicity will be given to anarchists but any that is will make some people think and alert others to the existence of groups they were previously unaware of.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Sometimes I'm baffled at what some people on here think protests are for and can actually do. Of course this isn't going to "kick off" and it's definitely not going to be another Poll Tax Riot - even the Poll Tax Riots weren't the Poll Tax Riots of imagination. Doesn't this go without saying? It's going to be a shitload of people from a very broad base (everyone hates Trump - even the Tory side of my family think he's a twat) taking over central London waving signs with assorted euphemisms and straight swearing. Effigies and comedy slogans will be in abundance. It won't affect his policy in the US. It might contribute a bit to any decision May might make about co-operating with him, maybe. It will make people in the US who hate him feel a bit better, more generally supported, though it may get portrayed over there as anti-Americanism.

It will give the people involved a sense that it is possible to really alter day-to-day reality through mass action. If there are the same numbers that were at, say, the march after his inauguration - and I'd expect more - they'll literally fill all the streets in the area and transform the environment. People will feel like they've been able to express their opinions about something awful in the world in some way and be part of something larger.

I don't think that it's bad not to go (I won't be going to wave a sweary placard myself, I'll be going to see what happens and to take photos) but really, there are plenty of really valid reasons that people might want to, just like for any other demo.

 

[LDC]

It will give the people involved a sense that it is possible to really alter day-to-day reality through mass action. If there are the same numbers that were at, say, the march after his inauguration - and I'd expect more - they'll literally fill all the streets in the area and transform the environment. People will feel like they've been able to express their opinions about something awful in the world in some way and be part of something larger.

How did that work out after the massive anti-Iraq war demos? If anything the massive demos and numbers of people led partly to a collapse in any sense of optimism or belief that demos and numbers change anything.

 

[ska invita]

It will give the people involved a sense that it is possible to really alter day-to-day reality through mass action.

... You've just made a good case that it won't affect day to day reality though...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

How did that work out after the massive anti-Iraq war demos? If anything the massive demos and numbers of people led partly to a collapse in any sense of optimism or belief that demos and numbers change anything.

... You've just made a good case that it won't affect day to day reality though...

Day to day reality in the sense of just changing the environment from a series of streets with cars and that to a roaming protest area. Don't knock that.

 

[Rimbaud]

Trump's visit coincides with the Durham Miners Gala which is going to be a big anti-Trump demo this year. Corbyn is speaking. Gonna be a big turnout this year I reckon, I've managed to convince a few apolitical friends to come.

It also coincides with the 12th in Northern Ireland, the bonfires and orange parades. Most tense time of year in the best of times, if the Republican left are hosting anti-Trump stuff at the same time as the orange parades there could be some mayhem.

It has potential to be a bit of a crazy weekend all over the country. I heard he is visiting Scotland, so there will probably be some attempt at direct action there.

So there are likely to be big left wing gatherings in London, North East, Scotland, Northern Ireland bringing in a lot of people who wouldn't usually get involved. Trump's visit has potential to be the political awakening for a great number of people, and this could easily snowball into other grievances.

The student protests in 2010-2011 were major causes of the summer rioting. I remember first one I went to where we smashed up Millbank was mainly students. The ones after that had local working class kids, often joining because of the EMA cuts and because the Millbank action had attracted their attention, turning up getting a taste for aggro with the police. Getting this taste for it was a big factor in things kicking off that summer I think.

Now I don't think that those riots were at all productive or positive, but it is an example of how major demos can have a politicising or radicalising effect and snowball into issues beyond Trump. I think it is about time we had a hot summer of protest, and Trump's visit could spark that off.

The Trump demos are a great opportunity to get more people politically active, and for new friendships and loyalties to be forged. It could be a really important moment, and dismissing it as liberal sneering is itself an even worse kind of elitist sneering imo.

 

[chilango]

...dismissing it as liberal sneering is itself an even worse kind of elitist sneering imo.

Dismissing what?

There's a range of disperate things going on here.

The only part I'm "dismissing as liberal sneering" is the "stupid Americans thinking they'll get their jobs back" type refrain I hear all too often when Trump is discussed.

The rest I think is hopelessly optimistic, but I'd be delighted to be wrong on that.

 

[ska invita]

Just as an aside, I've never heard anyone make any kind of link between the milbank+ student demos and the mark duggan riots before. You might be right... It's impossible to say for certain. To me it seemed spontaneous with the touch paper lit in Tottenham outside the police station. I agree with your general point though about one action possibly triggering others. Wether this has the capacity is... Up in the air (doubtful I think)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m not going to be so dismissive in advance of the nature of the demo or of the people who attend it, but in any event, it doesn’t matter to me. What matters is large numbers of people turning out to make it loud and clear that fascistic demagogues aren’t welcome in the UK.

Well here’s one visiting this month. What you got planned for that event?

Turkish president Erdogan to visit Britain in May

 

[redsquirrel]

So there are likely to be big left wing gatherings in London, North East, Scotland, Northern Ireland bringing in a lot of people who wouldn't usually get involved. Trump's visit has potential to be the political awakening for a great number of people, and this could easily snowball into other grievances.

Are the Trump protests going to be a left wing gathering? What makes you think so?

The reason why they are going to be so large is precisely because they are going to attract people from all over the political spectrum. I'm not going to dismiss then as "liberal sneering" but I think it's pretty naive to recognise that liberal voices are going to be protesting Trump, and in all likelihood, probably get more of an airing than "left" voices.

Again that's not to say that people shouldn't protest, but lets not pretend that such protests will be something they are not.


Also the Miner's Gala is exactly what I was talking about with a day at the fair. I've been more than once and it's a nice event but it's more about catching up with old mates than a political meeting.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Also the Miner's Gala is exactly what I was talking about with a day at the fair. I've been more than once and it's a nice event but it's more about catching up with old mates than a political meeting.

Plus there actually is a fair there.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Well here’s one visiting this month. What you got planned for that event?

Turkish president Erdogan to visit Britain in May

Nothing personally, but I hope others do protest against him.

 

[krink]

Plus there actually is a fair there.

don't remind me, costs me a fortune now the kids come with me

(be ok if i could get some of the free vouchers the num give out to their kids, where's the black hand when you need him? lol)

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

But why does it matter if he cares? For sure he'd rather have crowds welcoming him, but whether he cares or not is a shit reason for doing it or not isn't it?

I remember George Osborne's face was a picture when he got booed at the Paralympics. I think many politicians live such a detached lives that it's sometimes good for them and their egos to be given a dose of reality.

 

[ska invita]

What will be discussed with the government when Trump comes? I expect post-Brexit trade deals....

Trump threatens to use US trade talks to force NHS to pay more for drugs
Donald Trump is poised to force the NHS into paying billions more for drugs