Trump comes to town, 13th July 2018 - mass protests expected

[chilango]

...and back to this visit.

I'm not for a second trying to dissuade anyone from going along and protesting. Rather, trying to illustrate why I'm less than enthusiastic about it and (almost certainly) won't be joining in.

• I'm tired of hearing (privileged conservative m/c Brits in my experience, though others' experience may of course be different) sneering at "stupid Americans who think they're going to get their jobs back".
• It's nothing like the Poll Tax. The riot was just the icing on the cake of a massive, well rooted, community based movement. The mass non-payment was the genuinely exciting thing to take from that imo.
• Even if (and its a fucking massive "if") it kicks off big time...so what? What is there to feed back into? There's precious little of a "left" around and what there is is pretty fucked up right now.
• The cops have had plenty of practise at this kinda thing now.
• Trump, at best, won't give a shit. At worst, he'll revel in it.

Otoh...if you and your mates go and have a fun day out and maybe meet some like-minded people, then great. Enjoy.

 

[DotCommunist]

Trump, at best, won't give a shit

except all evidence I've seen from hs behaviour suggests his narcissism means he does care, the numbers.

 

[rekil]

Boos for Trump in July, hoorays for the red Pope in Ireland in August.

 

[LDC]

except all evidence I've seen from hs behaviour suggests his narcissism means he does care, the numbers.

But why does it matter if he cares? For sure he'd rather have crowds welcoming him, but whether he cares or not is a shit reason for doing it or not isn't it?

 

[DotCommunist]

But why does it matter if he cares? For sure he'd rather have crowds welcoming him, but whether he cares or not is a shit reason for doing it or not isn't it?

it may be a shit reason, I'm pointing out that its untrue to say he wouldn't give a shit, from what I've seen he's thin skinned and crucially, unable to hide it. Is that politics? no. Might be a good day out in the sun, as I say it depends on time/funds/inclination. If it turns into the remainer show then I'll likely swerve it. I'm still not sure how you are getting the 'worse than ineffective' thing from. Ineffective for sure, but how worse? Cos it'll suck up energy and divert people into momentum? that ship left port didn't it

 

[Pickman's model]

...and back to this visit.

I'm not for a second trying to dissuade anyone from going along and protesting. Rather, trying to illustrate why I'm less than enthusiastic about it and (almost certainly) won't be joining in.

• I'm tired of hearing (privileged conservative m/c Brits in my experience, though others' experience may of course be different) sneering at "stupid Americans who think they're going to get their jobs back".
• It's nothing like the Poll Tax. The riot was just the icing on the cake of a massive, well rooted, community based movement. The mass non-payment was the genuinely exciting thing to take from that imo.
• Even if (and its a fucking massive "if") it kicks off big time...so what? What is there to feed back into? There's precious little of a "left" around and what there is is pretty fucked up right now.
• The cops have had plenty of practise at this kinda thing now.
• Trump, at best, won't give a shit. At worst, he'll revel in it.

Otoh...if you and your mates go and have a fun day out and maybe meet some like-minded people, then great. Enjoy.

i don't know who you're listening to about american jobs, but from the sounds of it they're unlikely to turn out in great numbers to oppose djt. the poll tax riot of 31 march was off the back of a string of town hall riots and over a year of anti-poll tax activism in england (certainly there was activity in haringey in 1988, i saw the haringey anti-poll tax union minute book). but things happening against trump is from another tradition, that which has seen demonstrations against the likes of le pen and george w bush. if it kicks off big time it might be an isolated event. but it could enthuse people to campaign, and if it kicks off big time i think it's possible there'll be a need for a subsequent defendants' campaign. yeh the cops have had plenty of practice at this sort of thing. but then they'd had a lot of practice by 1990, by 1994 (hyde park), by 1999 (city of london)... and if there isn't a demonstration you can guarantee trump will say 'they said i wasn't welcome here but you can see i am'.

 

[xenon]

Why do the SWP always get brought up. No one normal knows or gives a fuck who they even are.

 

[Pickman's model]

Couple of snippets.

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the reason the swp and militant lost members is because people saw what the organizations were like at times of an upsurge of activity.

i am sure i'm not the only person who can recall the shameful swp withdrawal from anti-poll tax activity, to the extent that when visiting people from the swp who remained involved i had to go round after dark so their erstwhile comrades wouldn't see what they were up to.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think the SWP (or any Trots) are going to be an issue for this one. They'll be outnumbered many times over by the #FBPE wankers

 

[Lord Camomile]

Why do the SWP always get brought up. No one normal knows or gives a fuck who they even are.

Hey, I know who they... oh, right.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I’m not so sure, the orange nonce has cancelled two state visits now, reportedly because he’s not too enamoured with the thought of a frosty reception:

Trump cancelled his UK visit because he wouldn't get 'the love he believes he deserves', says Michael Wolff

Sure he’s sensitive about this stuff, but what I mean is that he’s never going to change his behaviour on that basis. He’ll never think “maybe I should not be such a cunt”, he’ll just think it’s terribly unfair.

 

[Voley]

Been a while since I've been up to That London for fun 'n' games. Could be tempted by this.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Sure he’s sensitive about this stuff, but what I mean is that he’s never going to change his behaviour on that basis. He’ll never think “maybe I should not be such a cunt”, he’ll just think it’s terribly unfair.

Oh that goes without saying.

 

[cantsin]

ED / Moderator : can i politely request we lose the 'mass protests expected' part to the thread title that's been added, on the grounds it's a bit uneccessary /wasn't really was i wanted to put ?

ta

 

[bemused]

Been a while since I've been up to That London for fun 'n' games. Could be tempted by this.

I'm going, it'll be a hoot.

Unless it rains then I won't

 

[mx wcfc]

Late to the thread, but I'm very much of the opinion that Trump would be better met by empty streets.

That would fuck his ego more. There is nothing he'd like more than seeing the Met break a few heads.

I'm probably just too old to be dealing with a big demo these days. Been on too many to know I'm not up to it these days.

Anyone going - have fun and stay safe.

 

[Mordi]

I don't think that any protests against him would actually change his view - he's such a dedicated narcissist.

All we have left is (a) indicating to the government that he's incredibly unpopular and attempts to ally with him would be political death, and (b) showing that to any foreign journalists who care at all. We hate this person who's been invited over; this can't be passed off as a nice diplomatic visit. We need to make sure that nobody can even get a shot of him anywhere outdoors in London without a sign somewhere in the background calling him a cunt.

I'd add to this showing solidarity with those facing charges and long prison terms for daring to protest the inauguration.

 

[Wilf]

was a bit surprised / encouraged by bods in my office talking about their mates sharing #RIOT hashtags from Instagram re: the just announced Trump visit on Thurs, declaring we're all taking the day off etc.

Then Lisa Mckenzie / CW slightly kicked my ass on twitter that night when we disagreed re: whether this was all just liberal virtue signalling, had little to do with the realities of the UK, where was the anger re: 150 Labour councils still up to their necks in social cleansing programmes accross the country etc etc.

I'll admit, am already a bit ambivalent re: liberal outrage vs Trump ( as Kanye said this week, 'WTF did Obama do for Chicago in 8 yrs ') , and Mackenzie deffo helped reinforce some misgivings re: potential Trump demos, but on the the other hand, if the people are taking genuinely felt, instinctive opposition to a much despised head of the global ruling class to the streets...which side are you on ?

I think we are forgetting some of the above - Trump is a cunt - a rapey, anti-welfare, anti-working class, racist cunt. Fine by me if people want to protest his visit... vigorously. But he's an easy target, literally, in that it becomes a day out. Different to getting involved in the hard work of union/community/class resistance. There may be a fair number out for Trump, but there will be an element of virtue signalling and the tone will be predominantly liberal.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I think we are forgetting some of the above - Trump is a cunt - a rapey, anti-welfare, anti-working class, racist cunt. Fine by me if people want to protest his visit... vigorously. But he's an easy target, literally, in that it becomes a day out. Different to getting involved in the hard work of union/community/class resistance. There may be a fair number out for Trump, but there will be an element of virtue signalling and the tone will be predominantly liberal.

I think the fact that Trump is an easy target is precisely why demos against him are so important. What we want to do is ensure that he remains an easy target, that his thuggish racism and extreme misogyny, to pick just two things, are not normalised as part of political discourse.

I think I can envisage a retort to what I’ve said above that some will hold here: racism and misogyny were already a normal part of mainstream politics: under Obama the deportation of immigrants actually increased, as did drone warfare, and police brutality was unaffected. In the UK we have windrush, Yale’s Wood, the Calais debacle and so on. The fact that these policies and programs have been administered by politicans who have mastered the dark arts of PC double speak makes them all the more insidious and obscured. Leftists should devote more energy to taking on racist and sexist policies, institutions and attitudes and not just go for easy targets like buffoons like Trump.

These points are well taken and I sympathise with them. What I would say in response is that the ‘out in the open’ misogyny and racism of someone like Trump poses a distinct set of dangers that must be resisted: if these sort of sentiments and ideas become normalised it has an array of toxic effects on society. How much harder, for example, will it now be in the US to promote the bodily autonomy and bodily integrity of women when they have a president who brags about sexual assault and has, for his whole adult life, treated women like they are nothing?

As a point of comparison, let’s think about the situation in the UK in contrast to the current political situation in the US re racism. Clearly the windrush scandal exposes racism at the highest levels of government. But it has also been an huge embarrisment for them: it led to the resignation of the Home Secretary and commitments to address the injustices they have caused. Of course this isn’t because they just woke up one day and saw the errors of their ways, it’s because know that their decisions have now become politically costly for them, that they will lose votes in the upcoming local elections as a result.

This is only because we still have in this country a culture in which shame can be mobilised against openly racist policies: the dark arts of PC require a nominal commitment to fairness, equality and the like and that can be used to leverage shame against flagrant discrimination (note, not trying to be complacent here, the UK has a long way to go re racism). Can we imagine that shame could be mobilised in a similar way against Trump’s thuggish administration for pursuing nakedly racist policies? I can’t, certainly cannot after the ‘Muslim ban’. This is because Trumpism holds itself to no standards and bulldozes all opposition.

The worry is that the normalisation of Trumpism will have a coarsening effect on political discourse, erode democratic norms and strengthen authoritarian populism. These distinct challenges ought to be acknowledged and resisted by the left.

Tl:dr - go to London and raise hell.

 

[redsquirrel]

But nobody is going to be raising hell are they Jeff, if they were I'd be far less ambivalent about these protests.

The fact is that as Wilf says these protests are going to be a day out at the fair, and a fair that has a large proportion of wankers among both its participants and organisers. Nothing wrong with that, might even be fun, but lets not pretend it's anything else.

 

[ska invita]

I don't think the SWP (or any Trots) are going to be an issue for this one. They'll be outnumbered many times over by the #FBPE wankers

For those like me who had to look it up

If you have been on social media over the last few weeks, you may have seen people tagging posts with the hashtag #FBPE, or using #FBPE in their usernames. But what does it mean? The hashtag was first used on Twitter in October by Hendrik Klaassens, a Dutch social media user, who posted: “#ProEU tweeps organize Follow Back Saturdays! Type #FollowBackProEU or #FBPE if you want to get more #ProEU followers. Let’s do this!” in an attempt to build up a network of pro-EU users.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

But nobody is going to be raising hell are they Jeff, if they were I'd be far less ambivalent about these protests.

The fact is that as Wilf says these protests are going to be a day out at the fair, and a fair that has a large proportion of wankers among both its participants and organisers. Nothing wrong with that, might even be fun, but lets not pretend it's anything else.

I’m not going to be so dismissive in advance of the nature of the demo or of the people who attend it, but in any event, it doesn’t matter to me. What matters is large numbers of people turning out to make it loud and clear that fascistic demagogues aren’t welcome in the UK.

And calling it a ‘fair’ is condescending and arrogant, it’s people exercising their democratic voice against the State visit of a wannabe tyrant who promotes nazis and brags about sexually abusing women. That’s a good thing right?

 

[chilango]

And calling it a ‘fair’ is condescending and arrogant

I was gonna call it a pantomime. Largely because Trump plays the role of pantomime villain at which the audience boo and hiss and have a good time doing so and then go home satiated.

I initially resisted doing so because I knew it would appear condescending and arrogant. Which I didn't want to do. It also dismisses the genuine anger or fear that a section of those turning out will be feeling.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I was gonna call it a pantomime. Largely because Trump plays the role of pantomime villain at which the audience boo and hiss and have a good time doing so and then go home satiated.

I initially resisted doing so because I knew it would appear condescending and arrogant. Which I didn't want to do. It also dismisses the genuine anger or fear that a section of those turning out will be feeling.

I think it’s fair to call Trump a pantomime villain. The terrible thing though is that the pantomime is actually real. I also think your point about catharsis and it’s pacifying effects is well made. But surely it would be worse if there were no protests at all?

 

[cantsin]

For those like me who had to look it up

wonder if the #PCPEU brigade will be out and about on the day ? ( not 'wankers' imo, but wrong, on EU)

 

[Pickman's model]

I was gonna call it a pantomime. Largely because Trump plays the role of pantomime villain at which the audience boo and hiss and have a good time doing so and then go home satiated.

I initially resisted doing so because I knew it would appear condescending and arrogant. Which I didn't want to do. It also dismisses the genuine anger or fear that a section of those turning out will be feeling.

No matter what happens I do not expect to go home satiated

 

[Pickman's model]

But nobody is going to be raising hell are they Jeff, if they were I'd be far less ambivalent about these protests.

The fact is that as Wilf says these protests are going to be a day out at the fair, and a fair that has a large proportion of wankers among both its participants and organisers. Nothing wrong with that, might even be fun, but lets not pretend it's anything else.

All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.

 

[chilango]

All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.

So a key question for this, or any other, protest is: Where has it come from and where might it go next?

 

[Pickman's model]

So a key question for this, or any other, protest is: Where has it come from and where might it go next?

Yeh. But it doesn't to my mind greatly matter where it has come from if it serves as a vehicle to further progressive agendas. For example it didn't greatly matter who called the 15/2/03 anti-war march, nor who organised the 31/03/90 march, nor even J18. There will be a wide range of groups out, some with m/c liberal agendas, some with more interesting politics, some attending simply out of a visceral hatred of trump. But the more reactionary views will be heard less than those of groups like cw: the demonstration could act as a fillip for domestic dissent.

 

[ska invita]

wonder if the #PCPEU brigade will be out and about on the day ? ( not 'wankers' imo, but wrong, on EU)

What the anti-Brexit hashtags mean
FBPE: Follow Back Pro-EU A hashtag that helps with community-building for anti-Brexit people on Twitter. The hashtag tells prospective followers that the user will follow them in turn if they are pro-EU.

PCPEU: Pro-Corbyn Pro-EU After some tensions in the FBPE community over how to treat Labour supporters loyal to the leader, a new hashtag emerged for the group caught between two stools: those who support the Brexit-backing Jeremy Corbyn, but also personally want to Remain.

WATON: We Are The Opposition Now In some ways the opposite of PCPEU, WATON is a reference to the fact that the Labour Party are seen to have abdicated their responsibility by backing some form of Brexit. “We” refers to anti-Brexiters, who see themselves as the true opposition to the Brexit-obsessed Conservatives.

ABTV: Anti-Brexit Tactical Voting This is a way of signalling that the user will only vote for a pro-EU candidate, and that they will vote for the pro-EU candidate with the best chance of winning. Anti-Brexit tactical voting might see a Labour voter go Lib Dem in a three-way marginal.

OFOC: Our future, our choice A hashtag and campaign group founded by 27-year-old activist Femi Oluwole

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/know-fbpe-pcpeu-guide-remainer-hashtags/