train travel and why we still use cars

[cybertect]

I will say southerners/ Londoners tend to get the thin end of the wedge here. I live in Leeds, when my friend who lives in London comes up to visit she can never get the low price tickets no matter how in advance she travels (and being penalised for travelling at 'peak' time). When I went to visit her, the jammy cow I am I got a dirt cheap ticket pre booked only two days or so before I wanted to travel.

fares out of London have always been more expensive - something that hasn't changed since the 1950s. ISTR my dad telling me he used to get his father to buy railway tickets in Liverpool and post them down to London using the 'wrong half' of each return (they weren't dated in those days) for every journey he made back home. The price difference made it worthwhile.

I quite enjoy travelling by train and had to go down to Plymouth for work on Wednesday at fairly short notice.

Got to Paddington about 4.30. Queued for a few minutes to get a return on the 5pm train and my jaw nearly hit the floor when I was told that would be £190! and no, that wasn't First Class

Even if it was going on expenses there's no way I was going to loan my company 200 notes for nearly a month before I got paid back.

6pm service - £64. I waited.

 

[Termite Man]

Well yesterday I had the envious experience of having to train it up form Bristol to that there London.

and you didn't come to visit me and shells

 

[Crispy]

Yup. Interesting about-face by the Tories from 2000 http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/981131.stm

New Zealand's rail system, built up with hard, hard labour, was wrecked by privatisation, leaving the tax payer carrying the can when the venture capitalists walked out.

I read about his in the papers while I was over there. Shocking. New Zealand should be perfect for trains - esp the south island, where all the population centers are in a line down the east coast. But no

 

[nick1181]

Cars vs Trains...

basically for me boils down to the impossibilty of parking vs the unpleasantness of fellow travellers. At the moment, trains win. I do hate people coming anywhere near me though. So I glower.

re: The NZ system - it was chronically innefficient before privatisation. There used to be a big rail-yard in Wanganui and it really did give the impression of not actually being run as a business - kindof a place where the jobcentres sent people to get them off their hands.

That said, I'm reasonably strongly in favour of re-nationalising everything. Privatisation is a special type of theft where things that have been built up by the community are sold off for some sort of short-term gain that the community rarely sees, and which transforms them at a stroke from owners to tenants.

 

[Poi E]

.

re: The NZ system - it was chronically innefficient before privatisation. There used to be a big rail-yard in Wanganui and it really did give the impression of not actually being run as a business - kindof a place where the jobcentres sent people to get them off their hands. .

And there you have your answer. The National government in the 1970s used the Railways to soak up unemployment. Slowly the government is realising that rail is a good way of moving goods without overloading bad roads.

Road transport has an inherent advantage as presently structured in terms of not fully covering by road tax the cost of the damage it inflicts on the infrastructure and environment in terms of accidents, road wear, congestion and pollution.

 

[Crispy]

That sounds a real shame. The geography of the populous regions of NZ seem to me to be ideal for trains. Agree with you 100% nick - things that are of universal public utility should be publicly owned. (remember though, that the UK train network was almost entirely built with private money...)

 

[Poi E]

That sounds a real shame. The geography of the populous regions of NZ seem to me to be ideal for trains. Agree with you 100% nick - things that are of universal public utility should be publicly owned. (remember though, that the UK train network was almost entirely built with private money...)

Actually a very tough terrain to put the railway through, but if you've got the system, and some shite roads, why not move the goods that way?

 

[Crispy]

Oh. When I was there, it looked like the east coast of the south island was just one big plain - just make a slight berm and stick some tracks on... Although I guess all those snowmelt spring rivers might be tricky...

And actually, the N island is pretty hilly. Hmmm. Guess I didn't think this through very well

 

[djbombscare]

and you didn't come to visit me and shells

Sorry mate it was work and ALLLLLLL day

 

[oneflewover]

Also they need to look at making train travel more appealing to families with small children ie: some help on and off trains with prams. Places to store the prams and help for disabled people who are effectively excluded from public transport. Getting rid of those station steps might be a start. The number of times I've been stranded at some two bit god forsaken station with a bridge and only steps over to it plus a pushchair aint funny.

At any manned station you will be able to get assistance, you just need to ask the conductor to arrange. Yes of course at others certain groups will be disadvantaged.

Oh and this is the particularly bonkers bit of your insane post. Hello people are already paying 100's of quid just for themselves, you really expect someone to pay another exorbitant ticket price for a fecking bag?

My point was, how many times, even on crowded trains, passengers use the adjacent seat. Unacceptable.


As in many posts we want cheap, if we want cheap were do we reduce costs. More seats (less luggage space), cheaper tickets (less staff).

We as a democracy chose a privatised railway, we got what we deserved. A profit based public service.

Plea for clemency, it's hard defending the undefendable /plea

 

[oneflewover]

The NZ system - it was chronically innefficient before privatisation. kindof a place where the jobcentres sent people to get them off their hands.

That said, I'm reasonably strongly in favour of re-nationalising everything. Privatisation is a special type of theft where things that have been built up by the community are sold off for some sort of short-term gain that the community rarely sees, and which transforms them at a stroke from owners to tenants.

British Rail, Steel, Docks, Coal were exactly this. Pay not much above minimum, yet with a security that allowed people to build lives and a community.

Do we want that as a society? The answer is a blatant no, just take a trip through Yorkshire to see the evidence.

 

[_angel_]

At any manned station you will be able to get assistance, you just need to ask the conductor to arrange. Yes of course at others certain groups will be disadvantaged.




My point was, how many times, even on crowded trains, passengers use the adjacent seat. Unacceptable.


As in many posts we want cheap, if we want cheap were do we reduce costs. More seats (less luggage space), cheaper tickets (less staff).

We as a democracy chose a privatised railway, we got what we deserved. A profit based public service.

Plea for clemency, it's hard defending the undefendable /plea

No you can't always get assistance even after you've booked it. Some stations are excellent others shite.. also if your connecting train has been late you may miss the assistance.


Just ask people to move bags on chairs when the trains full.

I certainly didn't choose privatised railways. I was far too youing to vote when all that happened so feel entitled to complain about it !

 

[trashpony]

We as a democracy chose a privatised railway, we got what we deserved. A profit based public service.

Plea for clemency, it's hard defending the undefendable /plea

Personally I think it should be illegal to privatise a national transport system.

Even the people who thought it was a good idea at the time have realised that it was a terrible mistake. Why are you defending it?

 

[oneflewover]

Personally I think it should be illegal to privatise a national transport system.

Even the people who thought it was a good idea at the time have realised that it was a terrible mistake. Why are you defending it?

It's not privatisation that i'm defending, it is the mode of transport.

 

[trashpony]

It's not privatisation that i,m defending, it is the mode of transport.

Oh I see

Sorry - I misunderstood.

 

[oneflewover]

Just ask people to move bags on chairs when the trains full.

I certainly didn't choose privatised railways. I was far too youing to vote when all that happened so feel entitled to complain about it !

Sorry, you've glanced off my point, maybe I was not clear enough.

People put bags on seats even when those around are standing. This is an observation nothing more.

We as a democracy chose privatisation, we have not the stomach nor the organisation to do anything about it.

We can do all the complaining we like yet if we do nothing more than some responsibility must be ours.

These are observations.

Off on a train now, Leeds to Sheffield, bit of football then Sheffield to Cross Gates. This evening i shall be Cross Gates to Garforth for drinks. Shall report back with more observations.

 

[_angel_]

hope it's not too busy but at least it's relatively short.

 

[Poi E]

We as a democracy chose privatisation,.

Was there a referendum?

 

[pembrokestephen]

Trains down here (SW) are shit. They hardly run, and you can never get one which gets you into Exeter at a suitable time.

Paying 12quid return for the grottiest train service isnt what I enjoy doing, and i dont drive. but if I have to go to Exeter, I'd rather have my partner drive me down there of a weekend.

Try living in West Wales.

Two hour service, you get a thing the size of a coal truck turns up, IF it hasn't packed up down the line...

Staff are friendly, though...but then you get long enough to get to know them, so it figures.

 

[oneflewover]

Was there a referendum?

Fourteen years ago to the day.

 

[oneflewover]

hope it's not too busy but at least it's relatively short.

The journeys went perfectly, shame the football didn't.

 

[pembrokestephen]

Fourteen years ago to the day.

Mm? A referendum?

 

[pogofish]

Don't blame the trains, blame the public.

On by far the majority of trains you can book, why don't you? Want room for you bag, buy it a ticket.

We as a democracy chose a privatised railway, we got what we deserved. A profit based public service.

Except that however badly implemented, there was once an idea that the trains should be run with an eye to public need.

Have you ever actually used a train? Over many years, I have never managed to book a seat on a train successfully. I think six people booked on the same seat for the same journey was the worst. I finished that trip sitting in the bit between the coaches.

The government who privatised the railways can hardly be described as democratically elected, can it? What was it, a 35% share of the vote & a hell of a lot less in my country?

 

[djbombscare]

I agree. How can the public be blamed for something which is there to service the needs of the public.

There is all this about getting vehicles off the road and there is a perfect good public transdport system. . .(See that its called PUBLIC transport.) that we shoudl use instead.

Thing sis its not good. Its overpriced and it doesn't cater for the needs of the public at all.

Lets face it. Its just another lot of bollox to cream money out of the hardworking british public.

 

[oneflewover]

Except that however badly implemented, there was once an idea that the trains should be run with an eye to public need.

Have you ever actually used a train? Over many years, I have never managed to book a seat on a train successfully. I think six people booked on the same seat for the same journey was the worst. I finished that trip sitting in the bit between the coaches.

The government who privatised the railways can hardly be described as democratically elected, can it? What was it, a 35% share of the vote & a hell of a lot less in my country?

Train travel is my favourite form of transport, I commute daily twixt Leeds and York and have travelled around Europe as far as Poland and the former Yugoslavia. The only time I've had problems reserving seats was in the aftermath of Hatfield.

With regards to blaming the public:- It was for their conduct on trains and their ever increasing need for the cheapest of tickets and for for all wanting to travel at the same time, eg. commuting.

The elected goverment 41.9% of the vote, was our goverment even if we didn't vote for it.

 

[oneflewover]

There is all this about getting vehicles off the road and there is a perfect good public transdport system. . .(See that its called PUBLIC transport.) that we shoudl use instead.

Thing sis its not good. Its overpriced and it doesn't cater for the needs of the public at all.

Lets face it. Its just another lot of bollox to cream money out of the hardworking british public.

Absolutely true in all these statements but as I stated earlier, the mode of transport is what i'm defending and in my experience, travelling at the times and to the places i do an ideal one.

 

[oneflewover]

Mm? A referendum?

You are correct, no referendum as such, however the electorate was in no doubt that Railway privatisation was part of the goverments plans.

 

[pembrokestephen]

You are correct, no referendum as such, however the electorate was in no doubt that Railway privatisation was part of the goverments plans.

Right.

Not to mention the fact that many of the population would have not considered voting in what they saw as an unelectable party at that time simply on the basis of rail privatisation.

So I don't think that your suggestion that the electorate had ANY real option to do anything about the rail privatisation issue specifically really holds any water at all.

I know what you're saying, and in principle you're right, but in practice it wasn't ever going to happen. Which makes us just as entitled as ever to grumble about the complete fuckup that is our privatised railway.

And (in danger of derailing here) it's not just the railways: with the fragmentation of our electricity generation and distribution, water, gas, etc., we've created a mare's nest of interlocking organisations, the result of which, generally speaking, is simply to prevent any kind of real innovation or proper development.

It's a shame that these decisions can't be reviewed 10 or 20 years down the line, the lies that were told in order to get them implemented exposed, and the perpetrators of those lies held to account. Long prison terms wouldn't seem unreasonable: it might stop politicians like our very own Dear Leader of today from making claims he KNOWS are false, just to get whatever it is he wants done done, and hang the consequences 10 years down the line, because he won't have to deal with them. Grr.

 

[Pie 1]

Super Apex
Apex
Auper Advance
Advance
Standard
Peak
Off-Peak
Single
Return
Open Return

WHY??!!

The train is going to run no matter what, so just set a single fare and let me get on with it!

Here in Switzerland I tell people about this and you can see their jaws literally hang open. Then they start chuckling. Then they see that you're not. and their expression changes to a sort of serious concerned look as they say "you're not joking are you?"

The Swiss Railways GA Card - 12 months unlimited travel on any Train, tram or bus at any time anywhere in the country: £1,500.

A 12 month season ticket from Chelmsford to London Liverpool St. (37 miles)
on a clapped out train with half of Essex cramed onto it: £2,700.

I know these sort of comparisons are meaningless really, but they do make you wonder. I've been on a train more - by far - in the past six months here, than I have in the past 6 years in the UK.

 

[Roadkill]

We as a democracy chose privatisation, we have not the stomach nor the organisation to do anything about it.

Rubbish.

The Major government put rail privatisation in its 1992 election manifesto, but without drawing much attention to it, perhaps unsurprisingly given that even Thatcher thought that rail privatisation would never work. The idea was only seriously activated after the election, and rushed through without proper consideration or experiments to make sure it was finished before the Tories faced their inevitable wipe-out at the polls in 1997.

Are you trying to suggest that the public should be held responsible for everything a government does? Do you feel responsible for the Iraq war? After all, that was started by a 'democratically elected' government. Or how about the various terrorism laws? ID cards? Where do you draw the line?

Rail privatisation was a piece of Tory free market dogma that went disastrously - if not unpredictably - wrong. The Major government who came up with the idea, the civil servants who framed the plans and the British Rail management who connived in their own demise are the ones responsible. Blame them, not everyone else.