Tout exposed Mark 'Stone/Kennedy' exposed as undercover police officer

[frogwoman]

Youthful high jinks

 

[Proper Tidy]

Fair's fair though mate, you did have an entire nine bar down your trousers.

It was all personal, honest guv

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You are quite right for once. Coppers getting the red mist is not the norm. I've seen people beaten, left on the tarmac without medical attention and then denied access to hospital treatment by entirely calm and composed police officers. Everyone can lose their rag sometimes, but it takes a special kind of bastard to calmly wait for half an hour to see if he has permission from higher up to let a man with a broken leg (which his fellow officers had broken) get into the waiting ambulance less than 50 yards away.

The same calmness as that of the coppers who calmly allowed 95 football supporters be crushed to death without lifting a finger to help.

The culture of obedience that d-b is defending is rotten to its core. Every copper should hold him or herself personally responsible for their actions. Don't fucking hide behind the uniform. That way lies dehumanisation after which all kinds of atrocities are possible – it is 'them' and 'us' and the 'them' aren't quite fully human like us, hence the division.

 

[detective-boy]

I didn't omit I just didn't divulge

- their heavy handedness (in my opinion) was because they thought he had drugs on him and didnt want him to get rid of them -

That would be one possible explanation, for sure. Sounds a bit over the top though.

 

[trevhagl]

And the members of militant who were infiltrated - as well as these anarchists - they were going to contribute to "massive financial ruin" wer they? If they are looking for groups that cause massive financial ruin, why dont they infiltrate a Bank?

i must have been contributing to the downfall of society by attending some anti poll tax meetings and writing into the local paper.

 

[detective-boy]

The culture of obedience that d-b is defending is rotten to its core.

I'm not defending any "culture of obedience". I'm simply pointing out that a system in which every individual officer made their own minds up what laws they would enforce, when and how, based on their own personal beliefs and preferences, would be entirely unworkable and entirely unjustifiable.

Every copper should hold him or herself personally responsible for their actions.

Within the parameters of the law, they are. Some pretend they're not, and the paranoid levels of "accountability" applied over the last twenty years which have resulted in a witch hunt for who's to blame whenever anything goes wrong has encouraged that. But each officer has discretion and is answerable to the law for what they do. Where there is a breach of the law they have a duty to deal with it. How they deal with it is where their discretion comes in. We need more application of discretion, not less. But that is NOT the same as choosing whether or not to follow any particular lawful order in terms of deployment.

 

[Proper Tidy]

i must have been contributing to the downfall of society by attending some anti poll tax meetings and writing into the local paper.

Have you still got the letter?

"Dear editor

Oi oi oi!..."

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Youthful high jinks

 

[revlon]

I'm not defending any "culture of obedience". I'm simply pointing out that a system in which every individual officer made their own minds up what laws they would enforce, when and how, based on their own personal beliefs and preferences, would be entirely unworkable and entirely unjustifiable.


Within the parameters of the law, they are. Some pretend they're not, and the paranoid levels of "accountability" applied over the last twenty years which have resulted in a witch hunt for who's to blame whenever anything goes wrong has encouraged that. But each officer has discretion and is answerable to the law for what they do. Where there is a breach of the law they have a duty to deal with it. How they deal with it is where their discretion comes in. We need more application of discretion, not less. But that is NOT the same as choosing whether or not to follow any particular lawful order in terms of deployment.

and then uniform go and cock everything up

CCTV shows police 'punching' Liverpool park stab victim

 

[trevhagl]

Have you still got the letter?

"Dear editor

Oi oi oi!..."

i don't think they would've printed letters about Oi - just general stuff, anti poll tax, rich fuckers giving themselves huge pay rises (that one actually cost me my job!)

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not defending any "culture of obedience". I'm simply pointing out that a system in which every individual officer made their own minds up what laws they would enforce, when and how, based on their own personal beliefs and preferences, would be entirely unworkable and entirely unjustifiable.


Within the parameters of the law, they are. Some pretend they're not, and the paranoid levels of "accountability" applied over the last twenty years which have resulted in a witch hunt for who's to blame whenever anything goes wrong has encouraged that. But each officer has discretion and is answerable to the law for what they do. Where there is a breach of the law they have a duty to deal with it. How they deal with it is where their discretion comes in. We need more application of discretion, not less. But that is NOT the same as choosing whether or not to follow any particular lawful order in terms of deployment.

you must have missed the bit where the cunts collective (aka the serried ranks of the police in this country) decided to stop enforcing the laws against cycling on the pavement. so much for their fucking duty to enforce the law.

 

[detective-boy]

More lies ...

http://cms.met.police.uk/met/boroug...oing/news/cracking_down_on_dangerous_cyclists

 

[frogwoman]

im still intreested in what crimes the members of militant and the anarchists were deemed to be plannin that necessetiated such a large amount of police time and resources being devoted to infiltrating these groups. it does seem a shocking waste of money tbh and im interested in the rationale that goes into this. surely the fact that neither group were a threat could have been ascertained by just simple observation of their activites rather than having to have these operations.

 

[detective-boy]

surely the fact that neither group were a threat could have been ascertained by just simple observation of their activites rather than having to have these operations.

You think that long term surveillance using conventional technques (i.e. observation points and following them about using officers on foot and in vehicles) (a) produces the same level of detailed intelligence as a covert human intelligence source (informant or undercover officer) and (b) is cheaper than using a covert human intelligence source?

 

[Pickman's model]

You think that long term surveillance using conventional technques (i.e. observation points and following them about using officers on foot and in vehicles) (a) produces the same level of detailed intelligence as a covert human intelligence source (informant or undercover officer) and (b) is cheaper than using a covert human intelligence source?

can you read the post and respond to it rather than replying to an entirely different post extant only in your imagination?

 

[Pickman's model]

More lies ...

http://cms.met.police.uk/met/boroug...oing/news/cracking_down_on_dangerous_cyclists

so, several months ago police from kensington and chelsea, one of the smallest boroughs in london, cracked down on cyclists. big fucking deal. what about the cyclists in the rest of london, let alone the rest of the country? if this is the best you can do you might as well give up now.

 

[frogwoman]

Im a SP member (the org that used to be militant) and it should be quite obvious just by LOOKING at our activities and behaviour that we're not about to blow up a fucking bank or something. The same with anarchists, lets face it the most illegal stuff most of them get up to is smoking weed and perhaps the odd bit of vandalism (sorry ) Can you reply to my post please as to why it was necessary to expend money and resources on this meaningless nonsense as opposed to serious offences?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Innit, would be cheaper if they just bought the paper.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you reply to my post please as to why it was necessary to expend money and resources on this meaningless nonsense as opposed to serious offences?

i thought i just said that

 

[frogwoman]

you did.

 

[frogwoman]

so, several months ago police from kensington and chelsea, one of the smallest boroughs in london, cracked down on cyclists. big fucking deal. what about the cyclists in the rest of london, let alone the rest of the country? if this is the best you can do you might as well give up now.

i see cyclists on the pvement every day here.

 

[butchersapron]

Hang on, the people the OP infiltrated aren't necessarily anarchists. They were targeted for their eco-type stuff, a hangover from the 90s and later threat-producing budget-defending/expanding policies.

 

[Pickman's model]

i see cyclists on the pvement every day here.

yeh. and when you see cops cycling a lot of the time they're on pavements too. and they don't bother with the 'single file' laid down by the highway code (not that they do when they're on horses either).

 

[frogwoman]

sorry, my mistake.

 

[detective-boy]

Can you reply to my post please as to why it was necessary to expend money and resources on this meaningless nonsense as opposed to serious offences?

I did respond to your point. "Looking at ... activities and behaviour" means surveillance. And, as I posted, that neither produces the same level of detailed intelligence product as infiltration and is much, much more expensive.

Asa for what crimes were suspected, I don't know as I don't have access to the files behind the operation. And neither do you.

 

[Citizen66]

Do these groups have any kind of vetting procedures regarding new members?

 

[Pickman's model]

Do these groups have any kind of vetting procedures regarding new members?

sadly few groups have any idea of even basic security

 

[krtek a houby]

Do these groups have any kind of vetting procedures regarding new members?

I think anyone can sign up these days

http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/

 

[free spirit]

Hang on, the people the OP infiltrated aren't necessarily anarchists. They were targeted for their eco-type stuff, a hangover from the 90s and later threat-producing budget-defending/expanding policies.

yep.

looking at the timing of this, if the infiltration started around 2000, this was around the time that the terrorism act was coming into force, and there was talk of earth first, and RTS possibly being proscribed as terrorist groups due to the wide ranging terrorism definition in that act.

This was also straight after J18 in 1999 when RTS had properly run rings round the police, and virtually closed the city of london down for a day by mobilising tens of thousands to a none a-b style police condoned protest march.

I doubt it's a coincidence that from 2000 onwards after this guy began infiltrating this network that the police have mostly had the upper hand with the mayday protests and other stuff.

If this guy was as involved in dissent as I'm thinking he probably was (wish my memory would work properly), it probably explains many of the problems dissent had in the run up to the protests with the police finding out which land owners had offered us land, and putting pressure on them to change their minds.

The eventual tactic of small affinity groups heading for the hills, and lots of other groups largely doing their own thing eventually meant that we had the upper hand for most of the first morning as we ran the police ragged all over scotland, but it could explain how our medical team were targeted in edinburgh inside a van, and a few other things.

hmm...

 

[free spirit]

I did respond to your point. "Looking at ... activities and behaviour" means surveillance. And, as I posted, that neither produces the same level of detailed intelligence product as infiltration and is much, much more expensive.

Asa for what crimes were suspected, I don't know as I don't have access to the files behind the operation. And neither do you.

shit.

I remember trying to work out why we didn't seem to be under any sort of surveillance at the last big pre g8 dissent planning meeting.... they obviously didn't need to as they'd already got us infiltrated.

(5 years later the penny drops)