Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[Athos]

Would you suggest ignoring this demo then, letting it go ahead with no response on the street?

No. I'd be more inclined to try to get the message accross to anyone who'dlisten the real reason for TR's arrest i.e. that he nearly caused a tril to collapse, becuase he's really more interested in demonising muslims than helping victims of sexual abuse.

 

[newbie]

The time for mass street protests by the left in respect of this issue has passed, as an opportunity largely missed

Opportunity for what? A position alongside racists, or perhaps one which they can join, making 'the left' (whatever that means in the context) look very muddled? At least a counterdemo rejecting his/their racist interpretation of events is clear.

 

[Athos]

Opportunity for what? A position alongside racists, or perhaps one which they can join, making 'the left' (whatever that means in the context) look very muddled? At least a counterdemo rejecting his/their racist interpretation of events is clear.

No, the opportunity to focus people' rightful anger on the correct targets - the authorities who allowed this to happen, rather than all muslims!

 

[newbie]

No, the opportunity to focus people' rightful anger on the correct targets - the authorities who allowed this to happen, rather than all muslims!

with some magic formula to keep racists away and marginalise their simplistic narratives? I don't see how you'd achieve that.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

with some magic formula to keep racists away and marginalise their simplistic narratives? I don't see how you'd achieve that.

By making progressive arguments instead of reactionary ones?

 

[andysays]

Yes, it would look contrived and opportunist to have one on the same day. The time for mass street protests by the left in respect of this issue has passed, as an opportunity largely missed, which allowed the right to position itself as the ones who care/are brave enough to speak the truth.

If 'the left' have allowed 'the right' to position itself as the ones who care/are brave enough to speak the truth it isn't because they didn't attempt to organise mass street protests in respect of this particular issue, it's unfortunately a rather more deep-rooted and long term problem which all the demos and counter demos in the world will do nothing to solve.

 

[newbie]

By making progressive arguments instead of reactionary ones?

yes I get that bit. But you call a demo outside the town hall and produce some leaflets and banners making those progressive arguments and a bunch of EDL/FLAers turn up with union jacks and handing out leaflets demonising Muslims. Fisticuffs may or may not ensue, but either way 'the left' looks muddled and their progressive message is tainted.

 

[Athos]

If 'the left' have allowed 'the right' to position itself as the ones who care/are brave enough to speak the truth it isn't because they didn't attempt to organise mass street protests in respect of this particular issue, it's unfortunately a rather more deep-rooted and long term problem which all the demos and counter demos in the world will do nothing to solve.

I agree that the failure to hold demos about this issue isn't the whole of the problem, but that doesn't mean that holding the right demos at the right time couldn't have been part of the answer.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I agree that the failure to hold demos about this issue isn't the whole of the problem, but that doesn't mean that holding the right demos at the right time couldn't have been part of the answer.

Well there have been demos, but they’re mostly to oppose the far right ones. Which is a PR disaster for ‘the left’ as doing that can easily be painted as being in support of nonces.

 

[Red Sky]

organise a seperate demo against grooming and the appalling response from the Councils and Police services

Go on then.

 

[Pickman's model]

yes I get that bit. But you call a demo outside the town hall and produce some leaflets and banners making those progressive arguments and a bunch of EDL/FLAers turn up with union jacks and handing out leaflets demonising Muslims. Fisticuffs may or may not ensue, but either way 'the left' looks muddled and their progressive message is tainted.

Call a demo against nonces and perverts and bedeck the town hall in images of fascist paedos

 

[Kaka Tim]

there is a counter demo leeds and there absolutely needs to be one and it needs to be as big as possible. We cant let the far right go unopposed - and a counter demo - at the very least - highlights that there is a counter narrative (i.e. that tommy robinson is opportunistic, racist scumbag exploiting these horrible crimes for his own agenda - and that his actions were a publicity stunt that could have led to the trials collapsing).
It will also mean that the police will take steps to curtail the route and scope of the "free tommy" march and police it more heavily - likely resulting in lots of angry, knuckle dragging, fash types shouting abuse on the news, which kind of undermines any attempt by them to portray it as a broad coalition of concerned citizens.
And primarily - i don't want those cunts being given a free reign to take over the streets of my home town.

 

[newbie]

Call a demo against nonces and perverts and bedeck the town hall in images of fascist paedos

ok, that seems workable, except that it doesn't address the precise issue that posters appear to want to organise demonstations about.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

there is a counter demo leeds and there absolutely needs to be one and it needs to be as big as possible. We cant let the far right go unopposed - and a counter demo - at the very least - highlights that there is a counter narrative (i.e. that tommy robinson is opportunistic, racist scumbag exploiting these horrible crimes for his own agenda - and that his actions were a publicity stunt that could have led to the trials collapsing).
It will also mean that the police will take steps to curtail the route and scope of the "free tommy" march and police it more heavily - likely resulting in lots of angry, knuckle dragging, fash types shouting abuse on the news, which kind of undermines any attempt by them to portray it as a broad coalition of concerned citizens.
And primarily - i don't want those cunts being given a free reign to take over the streets of my home town.

It will also convince the non-fascists involved that the left are against them so the enemy.

 

[Pickman's model]

ok, that seems workable, except that it doesn't address the precise issue that posters appear to want to organise demonstations about.

Put the boot on the other foot for a change, let's see fascists defending nonces

 

[LDC]

there is a counter demo leeds and there absolutely needs to be one and it needs to be as big as possible. We cant let the far right go unopposed - and a counter demo - at the very least - highlights that there is a counter narrative (i.e. that tommy robinson is opportunistic, racist scumbag exploiting these horrible crimes for his own agenda - and that his actions were a publicity stunt that could have led to the trials collapsing).
It will also mean that the police will take steps to curtail the route and scope of the "free tommy" march and police it more heavily - likely resulting in lots of angry, knuckle dragging, fash types shouting abuse on the news, which kind of undermines any attempt by them to portray it as a broad coalition of concerned citizens.
And primarily - i don't want those cunts being given a free reign to take over the streets of my home town.

Do you think the demographic of these demos is even mainly far right and fascist/fascist sympathizers though? They're not far right demos largely from what I see of them - although of course some of them turn up. I'm of mixed opinion, I feel uncomfortable about no response, but my recent experience of counter demos to things like this is that they're not largely about confronting the far right at all, more about shouting incoherent abuse at a bewildered mix of people.

 

[Red Sky]

Do you think the demographic of these demos is even mainly far right and fascist/fascist sympathizers though? They're not far right demos largely from what I see of them - although of course some of them turn up. I'm of mixed opinion, I feel uncomfortable about no response, but my recent experience of counter demos to things like this is that they're not largely about confronting the far right at all, more about shouting incoherent abuse at a bewildered mix of people.

People seem unable to deviate from the standard counter demo model. At this stage of the game taking the piss out of the increasingly bizarre "Cult of Tommy" would be far more productive.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Do you think the demographic of these demos is even mainly far right and fascist/fascist sympathizers though? They're not far right demos largely from what I see of them - although of course some of them turn up. I'm of mixed opinion, I feel uncomfortable about no response, but my recent experience of counter demos to things like this is that they're not largely about confronting the far right at all, more about shouting incoherent abuse at a bewildered mix of people.

I do tbh. Anything focused on TR is going to draw mostly to all fash. The FLA connection is a distraction - it’s not like the first couple of FLA marches (which were definitely not all or even mostly far right, though had a lot of far right speakers). A key point made by a lot of people was “we don’t want to turn into the EDL mk 2” and now it has, the constituency has changed as you can see by the numbers.

 

[LDC]

Tommy masks for all and piss-taking clowning about for the counter demo then?

 

[Red Sky]

Tommy masks for all and piss-taking clowning about for the counter demo then?

An effigy of Tommy in chains astride a giant gammon. He is our Lord and his touch will heal the sick .

 

[Magnus McGinty]

People seem unable to deviate from the standard counter demo model. At this stage of the game taking the piss out of the increasingly bizarre "Cult of Tommy" would be far more productive.

That’s a viable position. And not counter productive like a counter demo might be.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Do you think the demographic of these demos is even mainly far right and fascist/fascist sympathizers though? They're not far right demos largely from what I see of them - although of course some of them turn up. I'm of mixed opinion, I feel uncomfortable about no response, but my recent experience of counter demos to things like this is that they're not largely about confronting the far right at all, more about shouting incoherent abuse at a bewildered mix of people.

judging by the 200plus baboons who marched unopposed through the city centre last week demanding the freeing of tommy - then yeah, its the same lot who used to turn out for the EDL - aggro, macho, white blokes in the late 30s and older with lots of st georges flags. Amongst them will be hard core fash - the rest are various shades of bigoted fellow travellers and wanner-be hard men full of puffed up self righteousness.
We've had a mosque and a sikh centre attacked in the past week and today enormous swastickers have been daubed on walls in harehills. a large unopposed march will be seen as a victory for the far right and will encourage them (indeed this march is being built on the back of the unopposed flash mob one last week). Im pretty sure the fash will be seeing this as a real opportunity and they have long had a (relatively) large presence in west yorkshire. Im guessing they will be bussing in supporters from other parts of the north - and anti fascists need to do the same. I def think there is a high probability of aggro.

 

[The39thStep]

Go on then.

Keep on keeping on

 

[The39thStep]

That’s a viable position. And not counter productive like a counter demo might be.

Its only a viable position if the aim is to tread water.After that its lets hope it all dies down , the problem goes away and we can get back to bash the fash. Problem is ,to quote Hunter S Thompson, 'once the toothpaste has been squeezed out its kinda hard to get back in'

 

[Red Sky]

Its only a viable position if the aim is to tread water.After that its lets hope it all dies down , the problem goes away and we can get back to bash the fash. Problem is ,to quote Hunter S Thompson, 'once the toothpaste has been squeezed out its kinda hard to get back in'

"Treading water" or "holding the ring" is where we're at. That's what anti fascism is. A defensive move for the wider left.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Could counter-demonstrations seem to overly back the odd legal system and the rule of law? They might seem to position the left as defenders of how contempt of court works in its details. Which may well be better than seeming to back the defendants in the trial that TR was 'reporting' but it's still an odd place for the left to be.

Too nuanced for me to explain properly, I'm afraid:

I'm all for denying the streets to fascists but clarifying that while one is 'against' them on a broad principle, one is not 'for' what they're 'against' on this occasion, at least not in the specifics of how TR was banged up on a judge's say-so, but yes on how he prejudiced a fair trial for his own ends. He should have been tried, found guilty by jury if possible and sentenced, which would have been more difficult for the fash to have a go at. The apparent martyrdom of someone locked up without a court process for 'free speech' plays right into their hands.

 

[The39thStep]

"Treading water" or "holding the ring" is where we're at. That's what anti fascism is. A defensive move for the wider left.

Can you try and explain what 'a defensive move for the wider left' means in practise at the present moment please.

 

[treefrog]

Apparently there was a pro-Tommy Robinson demo in Aotea Square, Auckland this afternoon Seems weird as we have enough white male far-right twattocks of our own without needing to co-opt yours.

Sizeable counter-demo across the road calling out the bullshit though

 

[Athos]

Could counter-demonstrations seem to overly back the odd legal system and the rule of law? They might seem to position the left as defenders of how contempt of court works in its details. Which may well be better than seeming to back the defendants in the trial that TR was 'reporting' but it's still an odd place for the left to be.

Too nuanced for me to explain properly, I'm afraid:

I'm all for denying the streets to fascists but clarifying that while one is 'against' them on a broad principle, one is not 'for' what they're 'against' on this occasion, at least not in the specifics of how TR was banged up on a judge's say-so, but yes on how he prejudiced a fair trial for his own ends. He should have been tried, found guilty by jury if possible and sentenced, which would have been more difficult for the fash to have a go at. The apparent martyrdom of someone locked up without a court process for 'free speech' plays right into their hands.

There was a court process. The ordinary one for cases of this kind.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tommy masks for all and piss-taking clowning about for the counter demo then?

Placards with Elton John out of 'tommy' with a tr mask on. Or vice versa, tr with an Elton John mask on