Titanic tourist sub missing

[two sheds]

This is a dodgy road to go down. Who should or shouldn't have to pay for emergency services and if those who should, can't, do you refuse to supply the services?

Demanding that the state pick up the bill for private action? That's communism

 

[planetgeli]

You can pretty much go to sea in an uncertified bath tub if you wish, and it's not clear that a flag or coastal state can interfere.
The Canadian mother ship has to meet IMO requirements, including things like SOLAS (the safety at life at sea treaty) and MARPOL (the marine pollution treaty).
The submarine is not required to comply with any legislatory requirements when it's outside territorial waters, due to its size, and the fact it is not undertaking international voyages under its own power, and it's carrying fewer than 12 passengers.
For manned submersibles, it is possible to get them classed by an international classification society, like Lloyd's Register. They have, or certainly used to have, rules for the construction of manned submersibles. These rules cover the pressure hull, critical electrical systems, stability and the like.
For things like the pressure hull, it is possible to have it certified under a pressure vessel code, such as those published by ASME. That would determine the safety factors for the design and test pressures required for the main hull, but would exclude everything else. From the press reports, the plexiglass dome sounds like it was certified for a lesser depth than the operating depth of the submersible.
As you say, millionaires tend to be very litigious cargo. I am sure there will be a lot of lawyers looking at this, and there may be insurers involved, but I would imagine the public liability side of things will be, can we say...watertight.

I hear you, but how does that play with this?

'Industry needs to look in on itself' - Oceanographer​

A notable marine biologist and oceanographer says the incident should be a learning experience for the industry.
David Mearns is nicknamed 'the shipwreck hunter', and has helped solve a number of major maritime mysteries.
Speaking to the BBC, he says: "I certainly feel that now an investigation obviously should happen."
"This sort of thing we cannot allow to happen, and my industry needs to look in on itself and reflect on bringing passengers to such remote locations and such great depths because if things go wrong, there are very, very few options to make a recovery."
He says in hindsight, the fact the Titan was not safety certified is a "cause for concern".
"Would I choose a vessel without a classification? It’s not even allowed. I think that answers that," he adds.

 

[belboid]

Incidentally Spymaster probably has a point with regards to maritime rescue, and the absolute duty of ships to act on distress signals. There would be an enormous amount of complexity around liability for being rescued, and would probably result in various forms of injustice. Maritime law is... notoriously complex though... so maybe there are some caveats to that. It may just be built into standard shipping insurance contracts; insuring against risk of diverting or something. But yeah, making the rescuee liable would be complex and difficult to apply consistently. e.g is a surfer picked up by a yacht liable for the operating costs of that yacht, but not liable for anything if picked up by coastguard? Should they refuse rescue?

Why bring surfers into it? They don't operate on a profit seeking basis. That is a pretty big difference. And no one is saying efforts shouldn't be made, but if there is obvious recklessness involved, it is different to, eg, a bad storm, or a fault on the vessel. A failure to take 'reasonable precautions' shifts the emphasis significantly. Of course it would still go to court and take a while to sort out, but so does a lot of criminal behaviour.

Plus, many states, including the US, already charge for emergency services in some instances.

 

[planetgeli]

.

 

[Numbers]

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It's only taken 37 pages to get to the point.

 

[Cid]

Why bring surfers into it? They don't operate on a profit seeking basis. That is a pretty big difference. And no one is saying efforts shouldn't be made, but if there is obvious recklessness involved, it is different to, eg, a bad storm, or a fault on the vessel. A failure to take 'reasonable precautions' shifts the emphasis significantly. Of course it would still go to court and take a while to sort out, but so does a lot of criminal behaviour.

Plus, many states, including the US, already charge for emergency services in some instances.

Because it's difficult to make these distinctions in law. There are presumably surfers who do operate for profit. But swap it for a fishing vessel if you want. Does a bloke in shoddy old vessel fishing off the Bahamas have to pay the running costs of a cruise ship? does he have the capacity/finances to contest a resultant court case?

 

[BigMoaner]

.

good point. thank you.

 

[BigMoaner]

Why bring surfers into it? They don't operate on a profit seeking basis. That is a pretty big difference. And no one is saying efforts shouldn't be made, but if there is obvious recklessness involved, it is different to, eg, a bad storm, or a fault on the vessel. A failure to take 'reasonable precautions' shifts the emphasis significantly. Of course it would still go to court and take a while to sort out, but so does a lot of criminal behaviour.

Plus, many states, including the US, already charge for emergency services in some instances.

((((((((((((((surfers))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[BigMoaner]

is there anyway we can blame elon musk for this, please? thanks.

 

[belboid]

Because it's difficult to make these distinctions in law. There are presumably surfers who do operate for profit. But swap it for a fishing vessel if you want. Does a bloke in shoddy old vessel fishing off the Bahamas have to pay the running costs of a cruise ship? does he have the capacity/finances to contest a resultant court case?

Sorry, why would he have to pay the running costs of a cruise ship? And, if he can't afford to pay the costs associated with his business, does he have a business? (The costs would probably be covered by an insurance policy created to deal with such instances).

There are various proviso's that could be put in place before any question of charging came up. That's common in all sorts of business areas (eg Health & Safety). Sure, there will be some blurry lines at the edges, but that's true of pretty much all laws. If it weren't, lawyers would be paid the same as amazon warehouse workers.

 

[belboid]

is there anyway we can blame elon musk for this, please? thanks.

Sure, it's an example schiosmogenesis in action. Yer man Rush couldn't compete with Elon to go into space, so he went the other way. If he'd done space, we wouldn't be bothering with all this rescue business.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

I hear you, but how does that play with this?

'Industry needs to look in on itself' - Oceanographer​

A notable marine biologist and oceanographer says the incident should be a learning experience for the industry.
David Mearns is nicknamed 'the shipwreck hunter', and has helped solve a number of major maritime mysteries.
Speaking to the BBC, he says: "I certainly feel that now an investigation obviously should happen."
"This sort of thing we cannot allow to happen, and my industry needs to look in on itself and reflect on bringing passengers to such remote locations and such great depths because if things go wrong, there are very, very few options to make a recovery."
He says in hindsight, the fact the Titan was not safety certified is a "cause for concern".
"Would I choose a vessel without a classification? It’s not even allowed. I think that answers that," he adds.

I'm not sure this is correct. Classification is a voluntary process. In theory an insurance company may require it, and that is the origin of classification. For then mother ship, the Canadian government will delegate its regulatory responsibilities to classification societies to issue statutory certification.
Diving systems for profession divers are generally classified or certified, including habitats, compression chambers and bells. The precise regulatory requirements are set by the country where the contract of employment of the diver is, and/or the coastal state in whose territorial water or EEZ the operation takes place (ie 12 miles or 200 miles), and/or the ship (if the dive system is permanently installed). In this case, the dive site is outside Canada's EEZ. If the submersible is not considered to be a part of the ship, it will not come under Canadian regulation as the flag state.
I have dealt with portable dive systems that could more between ships and the dive system was classed. It is messy, as the integration with the mother ship is important in terms of duplicated power supplies and the structural integration etc.
In this case, the sub is probably not considered a permanent part of the ship, and is regarded as a "toy", with less regulation even than a jet ski (which would probably have a CE marking at least under the EU personal watercraft regulations).
There are moves to regulate subsea activity outside of EEZs, mainly associated with seabed mining. I'm not sure how non-territorial water or non-EEZ wrecks are regulated, if at all.

 

[BigMoaner]

Sure, it's an example schiosmogenesis in action. Yer man Rush couldn't compete with Elon to go into space, so he went the other way. If he'd done space, we wouldn't be bothering with all this rescue business.

thank you.

 

[planetgeli]

From the co-founder of OceanGate

I’m certain that Stockton and the rest of the crew realized days ago that the best thing they can do to ensure their rescue is to extend the limits of those supplies by relaxing as much as possible.



Seating plan for Titan.

 

[Cid]

Sorry, why would he have to pay the running costs of a cruise ship? And, if he can't afford to pay the costs associated with his business, does he have a business? (The costs would probably be covered by an insurance policy created to deal with such instances).

There are various proviso's that could be put in place before any question of charging came up. That's common in all sorts of business areas (eg Health & Safety). Sure, there will be some blurry lines at the edges, but that's true of pretty much all laws. If it weren't, lawyers would be paid the same as amazon warehouse workers.

Because a cruise ship might be the closest vessel when he gets into the presumed trouble that requires his rescue. Assume he is one of the many Bahamian fishermen eking out a living from the margins of the tourist industry that cruise ship relies on. And probably doesn't have insurance. Is it any way just that the operating company has an avenue to sue him?

On your second point the problem with stuff like the law of the sea is that no, of course you can't just introduce provisos. Not unless you fancy trying to get every nation with an interest on board.

 

[nogojones]

 

[Chz]

From the co-founder of OceanGate

I’m certain that Stockton and the rest of the crew realized days ago that the best thing they can do to ensure their rescue is to extend the limits of those supplies by relaxing as much as possible.



Seating plan for Titan.

View attachment 380289

Proper deep dive submersibles pack sedatives in their medical kit for this. If you're all stoned out of your gourds on Xanax, the oxygen burn rate goes down.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Incidentally Spymaster probably has a point with regards to maritime rescue, and the absolute duty of ships to act on distress signals. There would be an enormous amount of complexity around liability for being rescued, and would probably result in various forms of injustice. Maritime law is... notoriously complex though... so maybe there are some caveats to that. It may just be built into standard shipping insurance contracts; insuring against risk of diverting or something. But yeah, making the rescuee liable would be complex and difficult to apply consistently. e.g is a surfer picked up by a yacht liable for the operating costs of that yacht, but not liable for anything if picked up by coastguard? Should they refuse rescue?

e2a: yes I think law of the sea applies to coastal waters? But again, maritime law, not studied it, not going to.

In the shipping world pretty much everything has been thought of. Ship are insured against most eventualities, including
‘stowaways on board, rescuing refugees or saving of life at sea by the entered ship’.

here's a nice case study:

Saving of life at sea
The ship was on passage when the master received a message from the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) of Malta to assist a fishing boat in distress, with migrants on board. The ship successfully carried out a rescue operation and 207 persons were saved. The ship was instructed to proceed to Sicily to disembark the refugees. When the ship reached the designated port, the authorities were unable to deal with the migrants and the ship was directed to an alternative port where the migrants were finally disembarked.
Time lost: 5 days
Daily entered sum: $25,000
Recoverable?: Yes – ‘stowaways on board, rescuing refugees or saving of life at sea by the entered ship’.
Amount: $100,000 – 4 days excess 1 day deductible

 

[Cid]

In the shipping world pretty much everything has been thought of. Ship are insured against most eventualities, including
‘stowaways on board, rescuing refugees or saving of life at sea by the entered ship’.

here's a nice case study:

Saving of life at sea
The ship was on passage when the master received a message from the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) of Malta to assist a fishing boat in distress, with migrants on board. The ship successfully carried out a rescue operation and 207 persons were saved. The ship was instructed to proceed to Sicily to disembark the refugees. When the ship reached the designated port, the authorities were unable to deal with the migrants and the ship was directed to an alternative port where the migrants were finally disembarked.
Time lost: 5 days
Daily entered sum: $25,000
Recoverable?: Yes – ‘stowaways on board, rescuing refugees or saving of life at sea by the entered ship’.
Amount: $100,000 – 4 days excess 1 day deductible

Yeah, that makes sense... It's probably a fairly marginal risk as far as the big shipping insurers are concerned, in the grand scheme of things. Better that it be covered on that side of things than endless attempts to recover from whatever vessel has got itself into trouble. Especially given that most vessels that get into trouble just aren't going to be able to provide compensation. Do you know whether there are exceptions/ways to make a rescued party/company responsible liable?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Do you have any interesting stories about spoons?

The owner's a Conservative and Brexit supporting cunt who laid off his staff at the start of the pandemic and told them to go and work in Tesco.

The one and only interesting and redeeming and feature of Wetherspoons is that they go to the time, effort and expense of having unique carpets created for each branch.

The secret life of Wetherspoon’s freaky carpets

The budget boozer’s carpets may look as if they are designed to disguise vomit but, in reality, each one is a bespoke work of art

www.theguardian.com

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I always try to avoid spoons.

I boycott Wetherspoons, because Tim Martin's a cunt.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Bit disappointed they've gone 'new money' and described the search area as 'almost twice the size of Connecticut'.

That's 1.3 Wales' to the rest of us.

I also noticed a graphic that showed the depth in the new money unit of 'Shards' ie a stack of Shard buildings one on top of the other, instead of the old money Blackpool Tower, or Eiffel Tower, or Empire State Building.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Yeah, that makes sense... It's probably a fairly marginal risk as far as the big shipping insurers are concerned, in the grand scheme of things. Better that it be covered on that side of things than endless attempts to recover from whatever vessel has got itself into trouble. Especially given that most vessels that get into trouble just aren't going to be able to provide compensation. Do you know whether there are exceptions/ways to make a rescued party/company responsible liable?

Making the rescued party pay? That will be under marine salvage...I've never heard about anyone trying to make rescued people pay, just property.
This type of insurance is generally provided by mutual insurance clubs, the protection and indemnity clubs (P&I clubs), owned buy the shipowners, it's not like trying to get Direct Line to pay up.

 

[AverageJoe]

Well, I think we've all learned something from this unfortunate adventure.

Mine is never to have a cup of tea or eat a yogurt at kebabking s house.

 

[The39thStep]

Urine drinking buys you another two days maximum. But that might make the difference.

Wasn’t Madonna into all that ?

 

[Cid]

Making the rescued party pay? That will be under marine salvage...I've never heard about anyone trying to make rescued people pay, just property.
This type of insurance is generally provided by mutual insurance clubs, the protection and indemnity clubs (P&I clubs), owned buy the shipowners, it's not like trying to get Direct Line to pay up.

One day, out of a weird sense of interest, I wouldn't mind looking into maritime law and how the various insurance systems work. But sounds like a whole different world from yer average law. Did meet a maritime law specialist once. She got into it because she retrained (I forget from what) and the fact she spoke 7 languages was apparently quite handy.

 

[belboid]

Wasn’t Madonna into all that ?

are you confusing Madonna with Sarah Miles?

 

[maomao]

Wasn’t Madonna into all that ?

No kink shaming please. Plenty of us like getting the old rubber sheets out once in a while.

 

[The39thStep]

are you confusing Madonna with Sarah Miles?

I’ve never slept with Sarah Miles

 

[pseudonarcissus]

One day, out of a weird sense of interest, I wouldn't mind looking into maritime law and how the various insurance systems work. But sounds like a whole different world from yer average law. Did meet a maritime law specialist once. She got into it because she retrained (I forget from what) and the fact she spoke 7 languages was apparently quite handy.

It's a fascinating field. It's very much English law dominated (Marine Insurance Act, 1906). I work as a technical consultant to P&I clubs and their lawyers but I'm only I'm an engineer. The system is set up to get things moving quickly, with local correspondents doing a lot...historically while the fastest mail boat was making its way to London to tell them to ring the Lutine bell.