Those Were the Days...

[El Jefe]

Pop was much more back then.

In what sense? Tell me what you think JCC and SLF offered and I'm sure there are plenty of acts offering the same thing and selling out large venues across the country while they do it.

Thing is, Stanley, you sozzled old twat, you're posting as if you're the same, as if stuff has changed and you haven't.

The charts meant more to YOU then than they do now. Blaming it on the charts, therefore, is probably not even half the story.

Play the songs you rate from those charts to some kid now and they may well mean fuck all.

You're not an objective commentator, Stanley, any more than I am. The difference is, I'm willing to admit it.

 

[El Jefe]

I'd wager that almost all will agree that Special AKA at number 1 is the best thing bolded.

It's a good tune but far from their best.

Hardly the point though, eh?

 

[Stanley Edwards]

In what sense? Tell me what you think JCC and SLF offered and I'm sure there are plenty of acts offering the same thing and selling out large venues across the country while they do it.

They probably are, but they're not reaching as wide, or as big an audience. I think Firky quoted JCC 'Chicken Town' in a thread in General a couple of weeks ago. It's still a very relevant and powerful piece that makes it's point in a way that anyone can understand.

Have to admit that I haven't watched UK TV for some years now, so I can't really comment, but from what I saw Four, or Five years ago, what is deemed to be popular culture/popular music today is very bland and safe.

Anyway, I'm off to work. Sketching in the streets whilst listening to good music, soaking up sunshine and enjoying a beer with tapas

e2a; You're earlier point that people have to know where to look is exactly my point.

 

[El Jefe]

They probably are, but they're not reaching as wide, or as big an audience.

Are you sure? As I said, the charts don't reflect sales. You're taking your feelings here and trying to turn them into facts. But I reckon you're wrong.

I think Firky quoted JCC 'Chicken Town' in a thread in General a couple of weeks ago. I

Great song / poem. Are you saying that nothing of its equal is out there now? And are you claiming that as objectively so, or just to you?

See the problem Stanley - it's all about you

Have to admit that I haven't watched UK TV for some years now, so I can't really comment, but from what I saw Four, or Five years ago, what is deemed to be popular culture/popular music today is very bland and safe.

yeh, cos music coverage on TV in the late 70s really reflected what was going on

if you're looking for the good music on TV, you're looking in the wrong place. Nothing's changed there. So again - it's not the music's problem, is you.

Anyway, I'm off to work. Sketching in the streets whilst listening to good music, soaking up sunshine and enjoying a beer with tapas

And once again, Stanley evades a failed argument by painting us a picture of his idyllic lifestyle. A lifestyle so perfect he spends his time getting banned from a bulletin board for screaming at people about babies dying in Iraq.

Twat

 

[Idaho]

OK, here's this week in 1980

1 1 Special A.K.A. Too Much Too Young (E.P.)
2 10 Kenny Rogers Coward Of The County
3 4 Nolans I'm In The Mood For Dancing
4 3 Madness My Girl
5 5 Joe Jackson It's Different For Girls
6 7 Styx Babe
7 2 Pretenders Brass In Pocket
8 14 Boomtown Rats Someone's Looking At You
9 6 Billy Preston & Syreeta With You I'm Born Again
10 9 Booker T And The MGs Green Onions
11 12 Regents 7Teen
12 15 Jon And Vangelis I Hear You Now
13 20 New Musik Living By Numbers
14 8 K.C. & The Sunshine Band Please Don't Go
15 40 Keith Michell Captain Beaky
16 11 Dollar I Wanna Hold Your Hand
17 13 Dr. Hook Better Love Next Time
18 37 Whispers And The Beat Goes On
19 18 Sheila B. Devotion Spacer
20 30 Queen Save Me
21 29 Selecter Three Minute Hero
22 19 Azymuth Jazz Carnival
23 27 Rupert Holmes Escape (The Pina Colada Song)
24 22 Matchbox Buzz Buzz A Diddle It
25 36 Ramones Baby I Love You
26 NEW Shadows Riders In The Sky
27 NEW Cliff Richard Carrie
28 35 Buggles Living In The Plastic Age
29 23 Kool And The Gang Too Hot
30 31 Jefferson Starship Jane
31 21 Bee Gees Spirits (Having Flown)
32 25 Positive Force We Got The Funk
33 NEW John Foxx Underpass
34 16 Clash London Calling
35 NEW Michael Jackson Rock With You
36 32 Sad Cafe Strange Little Girl
37 17 Beat Tears Of A Clown
38 34 Suzi Quatro Mama's Boy
39 NEW Brass Construction Music Makes You Feel Like Dancing
40 NEW Dexy's Midnight Runners Dance Stance

Three or four classics in there, but mostly wank

Oh come on - at least 10 classics!

 

[El Jefe]

Well, it's a matter of opinion.

which is kinda the basis of my issue with Stanley's absurd claim

He said "Remember when pop actually meant summat?" as if his was the only possible reaction to it.

I'm sure his dad said the same thing about the charts in 1957 or whatever. And his kids will say the same about 2017.

But he totally fails to place his claims within his own subjective worldview. Typical Stanley, really

 

[ouchmonkey]

Yes. It did mean more. Point taken that the charts aren't what they used to be, and The Stranglers weren't a real reflection of what was going on at the time (although they did make some bloody good pop songs). However, with politically motivated bands regularly charting and making prime time TV appearances to huge audiences - pop did mean much more back then.

Like you say; the chart demographic has changed and the world has changed. TV isn't the force it used to be for one, but where can the equivalent of acts like John Copper Clarke, Stiff Little Fingers etc find such large audiences today? Pop was much more back then.

Much as I hate to be drawn into this foolishness................

you're first point there is one you hear fairly often and it really, really irritates me. Politics as lyrical subject matter does not automatically create greater meaning, it's just a different subject. Also the political meaning and power of Pop is not restricted to, or even best defined by, sloganeering words.

On your second point you're right, kinda, and I think this may be where we can all agree, Even if the charts were packed to the gills with the sort of stuff you say was so much better - it still wouldn't mean as much as it did then because the chart itself no longer carries the same cultural weight or importance that it did. TOTP was scrapped because no-one gave a toss anymore and we should be glad 'cos when it was still here we all just used to moan about what a charade it was anyway

 

[Idaho]

The one constant in the universe seems to be people saying that things have changed for the worse.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

That seems to be a very western trait. The Chinese genuinely believe things are getting better in their country.

 

[Belushi]

There's still lots of great pop. And there was as much crap in the charts then as now.

Jesus, sad old bastards who can't see they're being sad old bastards really depress me

Spot on.

 

[Spion]

And once again, Stanley evades a failed argument by painting us a picture of his idyllic lifestyle. A lifestyle so perfect he spends his time getting banned from a bulletin board for screaming at people about babies dying in Iraq.

Twat

The guy suffers from depression. Are there not better ways of winning the argument with him? This all looks pretty nasty to me

 

[El Jefe]

i wasn't aware of this. I've seen him 'win arguments' in far worse ways that that.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I started writing down the Top 30 every week, in an orange-covered school exercise book from when the Jam went straight into number 1 with Going Underground in 1980. I used to sit and listen to the chart run-down when it happened every Tuesday evening, with Mike Reid iirc. I would say that there seemed to be a greater proportion of exciting music around at that time than currently - however, that may also be because i was younger and more excited by music then than now.

 

[El Jefe]

I started writing down the Top 30 every week, in an orange-covered school exercise book from when the Jam went straight into number 1 with Going Underground in 1980. I used to sit and listen to the chart run-down when it happened every Tuesday evening, with Mike Reid iirc. I would say that there seemed to be a greater proportion of exciting music around at that time than currently - however, that may also be because i was younger and more excited by music then than now.

I'd argue that it's almost entirely because you were younger etc..
it's not clear cut, of course, but to try and claim X is worse than Y and not include yourself in that equation, which is what Stanley has tried to do, is crazy

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Maybe partly, but the whole energy that came off the back of the punk rock explosion definitely provided an excitement that seems strangely lacking these days, imo. The preponderence of pop-idol pap seems to represent the nearest phenomena these days to the idea of diy-music making, as well as the youtube artistes. Neither of which floats my boat at all really. I don't know though, i'm also going backwards in time as much as forwards in what i listen to these days.

 

[El Jefe]

Maybe partly, but the whole energy that came off the back of the punk rock explosion definitely provided an excitement that seems strangely lacking these days, imo.

To YOU, it does.

kids these days are out there listening to nu-rave or emo or whatever the fuck - do you really think you found the Pistols more exciting than a 15 year old kid finds Gallows?

It's all so self-absorbed, this stuff. You're NOT talking in absolutes, you're talking in personal opinions.

The preponderence of pop-idol pap seems to represent the nearest phenomena these days to the idea of diy-music making, as well as the youtube artistes. Neither of which floats my boat at all really. I don't know though, i'm also going backwards in time as much as forwards in what i listen to these days.

Pop Idol doesn't equate with DIY music making, it equates with the Nolans.
As for DIY music making, what about grime or dubstep etc?

You're comparing two different things and finding the modern version wanting.

Imagine being 18 and making dubstep in your bedroom, creating a whole new scene with your mates, being totally buzzing about it.
That probably feels the same to him as punk did to you.
ANYTHING else is just your subjective experiences.

 

[Spion]

Imagine being 18 and making dubstep in your bedroom, creating a whole new scene with your mates, being totally buzzing about it.
That probably feels the same to him as punk did to you.

is that stuff in the charts tho? (which is what this thread is about)

Is it not the case that the music industry as manifested in the mainstream, the charts etc has squeezed out the small players? There was a time when 'indie' meant something approaching independent. It doesn't now, does it?

it does seem to me that while the music biz always has been a business there have been times when the smaller labels and the less commercially directed acts have been able to flourish, unlike now

 

[editor]

There's some great new music around, but the scene is so different now it's impossible to compare with the 70s/80s.

But I'm sure the average rock/indie music obsessed 17 year old doesn't find it any less exciting than when I grew up in the middle of punk/ska/new wave - even if many of their current fave bands later turn out to have a small musical legacy.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. When you're young, the excitement of listening, buying and watching your fave bands is fucking exciting, even if some aspects of the experience have changed over the years.

The young bands I put on at Offline are just as committed and as passionate about music as I ever was.

 

[El Jefe]

The whole market is different, so it's impossible to draw any concrete conclusions from comparing 1978 with 2008. Music is distributed and sold in different ways, made in different ways.

There are still as many independent labels, many of them are doing brilliantly well on their own terms while EMI suffers on its own terms. The charts are pretty meaningless now, they don't really represent what's going on. But that's not the same as claiming, as the OP did, that pop is now all meaningless crap whereas it was all fields round here in the late 70s


eta: pretty much what the editor said

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Pop music = popular music, therefore the argument has to have at its core the singles chart. I take your point on dubstep/grime but that isn't charting on the whole. If the charts are meaningless, then what is pop music? Is it impossible to define something as 'pop' in that context?

 

[El Jefe]

But if you take the definition of pop music as music that is popular, then those metal / emo bands that sell out night after night at the Academy are pop music.

Does that work for you? Cos it doesn't for me

I think "pop music" is hard to define, but it's not chart dependent. I think you instinctively know what a pop record is without it b eing easy to pin down

 

[Spion]

I think you instinctively know what a pop record is without it b eing easy to pin down

Ahem. If that were the case any human being from any place or time would be able to do that. Which is a little far-fetched

 

[El Jefe]

Ahem. If that were the case any human being from any place or time would be able to do that. Which is a little far-fetched

Always with the pedantry

You know what I mean

 

[Spion]

Always with the pedantry

You know what I mean

I do

But it's an interesting question tho - what is pop music?

Is it a structural/style thing? (simple chord progressions, short-ish?)
Is it popularity? (but then what about those tunes written as pop song that didn't become popular?)

 

[El Jefe]

I do

But it's an interesting question tho - what is pop music?

Is it a structural/style thing? (simple chord progressions, short-ish?)
Is it popularity? (but then what about those tunes written as pop song that didn't become popular?)

I'd struggle for a definition, certainly. I guess you'd factor in stuff like "singles based". You might say "disposable" but a) you'd be wrong and b) that sounds like a perjorative and it's not, not really.

 

[El Jefe]

here's a couple of definitions:

# music of general appeal to teenagers; a bland watered-down version of rock'n'roll with more rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Now that's wank, for a start.

# Pop music is a genre of popular music distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music. The term indicates specific stylistic traits such as a danceable beat, simple melodies, and repetitive structure so that people can catch on and join in easily. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop music

Hmm.. not sure that's any help either.

How do you define something that includes The Supremes and Fast Food Rockers?

 

[El Jefe]

maybe it's everything commercial that's left when it's not something else.

So soul is soul, R&B is R&B, rock is rock. What you have left is pop

Almost a definition in reverse

 

[ouchmonkey]

But it's an interesting question tho - what is pop music?

No it's not. You may as well ask how long is a piece of string.

 

[Spion]

How do you define something that includes The Supremes and Fast Food Rockers?

Well, they've both use only a handful of chords per tune and use a verse/chorus/verse/bridge/chorus sort of structure, so they're in the same boat in many ways. Compared to say, most classical.

 

[Spion]

"Pop music is a genre of popular music distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music. The term indicates specific stylistic traits such as a danceable beat, simple melodies, and repetitive structure so that people can catch on and join in easily. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop music"

I think that's pretty close to how I'd define it (tho some folk will share a lot of things struture-wise)