teuchter
je suis teuchter
This is such nonsense that I'm going to assume you're on a wind up.
"The UK has the most expensive train fares in Europe"
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
Riklet
procrastinación
Ok then great. I'll assume the same about you Mr "train fares arent actually expensive in the UK you just need to educate yourself how to buy one".
On an interesting note, an off-peak single is now £8.40 Bristol Temple Meads to Bath Spa (12 min journey). And a return is now....... £8.50! CUNTS.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's a pretty simple illustration of why UK train tickets are so comparatively expensive. UK rail subsidy is the smallest by some distance.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's been the case with off-peak tickets now for many, many years.Ok then great. I'll assume the same about you Mr "train fares arent actually expensive in the UK you just need to educate yourself how to buy one".
On an interesting note, an off-peak single is now £8.40 Bristol Temple Meads to Bath Spa (12 min journey). And a return is now....... £8.50! CUNTS.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's putting in ten time more per passenger kilometre. You've got to scale things to produce a meaningful comparison.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
It isn't, you're taking two figures from 10 years apart, and they're EU subsidies, nothing to do with how much each country is subsidising rail journeys, but a quick Google suggests that each passenger journey in both the UK and Ireland is subsidised to the tune of just over 2 quid.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ah ok. Fair enough. I misunderstood what those figures represented.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
No, you didn't misunderstand, they aren't "EU subsidies". The table is on this page with links to the sources:
Rail subsidies - Wikipedia
It's true that they are for different years, and it's also quite hard to pin down exactly what "subsidy" there is because of the complex way these things are funded and also that they are unevenly funded from year to year when there are large infrastructure projects with gaps in between them.
But as you say, it shows a tenfold difference between the two countries, so even if either of the numbers had changed in the intervening years, it seems likely that Irish rail journeys receive a higher level of subsidy (per pass-km) than UK ones.
Numbers for subsidy per journey are different from subsidy per passenger-km. Obviously a network with a lot of short journeys made is going to see a lower subsidy "per journey" than one with many more longer journeys, given an overall similar passenger-km subsidy.
There are of course multiple other things that can affect how expensive it is to maintain a network - what speed and frquency does it operate at, what proportion is urban, what proportion relies on complex 100+ years old infrastructure, how much of the infrastructure is at capacity and how much of that is in highly constrained locations, and so on and so on.
bimble
floofy
I’m about 40 minutes from Euston on a train, maybe an hour by car. The fact that it’s about 3 times cheaper to drive, no matter what time of day, is so monumentally stupid i get cross about it all over again every time i remember that its the case.
If I could change that by paying some motorist-punishment money, a proper amount for road tax or whatever, i'd personally be happy to do so but it wont happen will it.
If I could change that by paying some motorist-punishment money, a proper amount for road tax or whatever, i'd personally be happy to do so but it wont happen will it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yeah, in a rational transport system, all single standard-class train tickets would always cost less than the petrol to drive that distance in a standard car.
It only needs to be a little less. It can be cheaper to drive with a passenger perhaps than two train tickets. But that should be a minimum, and it should be worked out that way from the bottom up. But that would require an integrated transport system and policy.
I guess electric cars will change that consideration somewhat.
Road pricing is of course one way to do it. Japan, for instance, does charge quite a bit to drive on the roads with the explicit aim to get people into trains. Politically hard to introduce here.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Both the UK and Irish rail networks are subsidided to the tune of £2 per passenger journey. The Uk has over 35X as many passenger journeys as Ireland. No matter how you try to spin it, that's 35x more income from subsidies alone, then there's the extortionate fares, but I'll let you work that one out.No, you didn't misunderstand, they aren't "EU subsidies". The table is on this page with links to the sources:
Rail subsidies - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It's true that they are for different years, and it's also quite hard to pin down exactly what "subsidy" there is because of the complex way these things are funded and also that they are unevenly funded from year to year when there are large infrastructure projects with gaps in between them.
But as you say, it shows a tenfold difference between the two countries, so even if either of the numbers had changed in the intervening years, it seems likely that Irish rail journeys receive a higher level of subsidy (per pass-km) than UK ones.
Numbers for subsidy per journey are different from subsidy per passenger-km. Obviously a network with a lot of short journeys made is going to see a lower subsidy "per journey" than one with many more longer journeys, given an overall similar passenger-km subsidy.
There are of course multiple other things that can affect how expensive it is to maintain a network - what speed and frquency does it operate at, what proportion is urban, what proportion relies on complex 100+ years old infrastructure, how much of the infrastructure is at capacity and how much of that is in highly constrained locations, and so on and so on.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Give us your sources for subsidy per journey, and no. of journeys. And then give us the numbers per passenger-km.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
No.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Here's mine, show me yours.
FactCheck: Which public transport services get the most state funding?
AAA-PBP TD Brid Smith says the state gives more per journey to rail and tram services than it does to buses. We put her claim to the test.
www.thejournal.ie
€110.6 million in subsidies is a far cry from the UK's £4.4 Billion the same year.
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bimble
floofy
Yep. That might be overly simplistic but its how it seems to me, that must be the basic starting point.
Far as i can tell the only thing that keeps people commuting from here by train (station car park in nearest town is absolutely vast) is the cost / impossibility of parking in central London.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Here's mine, show me yours.
FactCheck: Which public transport services get the most state funding?
AAA-PBP TD Brid Smith says the state gives more per journey to rail and tram services than it does to buses. We put her claim to the test.
€110.6 million in subsidies is a far cry from the UK's £4.4 Billion the same year.
I'm no expert in Irish rail funding but those numbers are for the PSO and for the purpose of comparison with other modes. It looks like they generally get about 140m additional each year as direct funding from government which I assume covers stuff like capital projects.
So that makes 230 Million. The Wikipedia table figure of 910 Million seems erroneous - maybe there was large capital investment in 2008. As I said already, capital investment can go up and down a lot year to year, for all countries. The same applies to the UK. In 2000 the UK total figure was £2bn; in other years it's been higher than 4.4bn. These figures are difficult to compare directly. The UK network carries more freight and more of it is high speed.
IE has 1.7bn pass/km per year; UK has 65bn pass km per year. So, UK provides 38 times as many passenger-km per year as IE does.
Multiply the 230 Million by 38 and you get an equivalent subsidy of €8.7Bn in Ireland, compared to UK's £4.4Bn.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
I don't think you know how maths works, or trains, for that matter. There's an old adage... "A thimbleful of diesel oil will move a ton of freight a mile." It's referring to trains, and I'll let you work out the rest for yourself, but suffice to say, the number of passengers and the number of miles they travel has very little bearing on expenditure for a rail network, but it has a massive bearing on profits.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
HS2, the cost is fucking mental. It's another garden bridge effort that to everyone's surprise got the go ahead. I support the need for it and all that, but the way it's being done, £100bn, and the rest, double that to be real and double again if they build the spurs. £200bn is nearly 7 grand per man, woman and child in this country, that is insane, even if you do cost it over 100 years or any of the other bullshit platitudes that supporters of this money grab come out with.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Dunno what you're on about. If you've got a point to make, make it clearly.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
You're full of shit?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
There's another thread to argue about HS2 on.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Is HS2 not a train thing?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
This thread is about the question of whether rail fares in the UK are the most expensive in Europe.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Are HS2 fares not part of the equation? Is HS2 not trains?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
If you've got a point to make, make it clearly.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
'Trains' in 'are trains' shocker!
teuchter
je suis teuchter
The implication here is that, say, a family of two adults and two kids would pay £58.70 + £58.70 + £29.35 (child fare version of same ticket) + £29.35 = £176.10.
But, that's an 'any permitted route' and peak travel ticket.
Not necessary for Clapham-Bletchley which has a direct train so no need to go via London. If peak travel is necessary, then the cost changes to £150.90.
If peak travel isn't necessary (ie can wait until after 9am) then an adult ticket becomes £26.50 and a child ticket £13.25 giving a total of £79.50.
But then a groupsave fare automatically applies to three of those tickets meaning the total becomes £65.60.
A family without a car would very likely invest in a family & friends railcard - giving a 1/3 discount on the adult fares, and a flat fare of £10 for each child, meaning the total cost for a family of 4 is £44.90. That's a return ticket - as long as you depart after 9am.
So by travelling off peak and choosing the right ticket, the total cost for a family of four is about 2/3 the price of the ticket for one person that you've shown.
And this is why I argue against the simplistic notion that the UK has the "most expensive fares in Europe". Yes, peak travel is expensive, but very often off-peak travel really isn't, and there are further discounts available to those travelling in groups who might otherwise be able to share a car.
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