"The UK has the most expensive train fares in Europe"

[DotCommunist]

first/stagecoach/arriva have all the bus routes sewn up between them and charge and arm and a leg. Privatisation leading to cartels again

 

[teuchter]

first/stagecoach/arriva have all the bus routes sewn up between them and charge and arm and a leg. Privatisation leading to cartels again

The same companies operate London buses. The difference is in the way they are regulated. In London there is the political will to maintain something like TfL that controls the way the services are provided, because people in London rely on having an efficient public transport system. Local authorities in other parts of the UK could and should be doing the same, but generally it doesn't happen because most people just accept that they live in a car dependent society and don't care about public transport.

 

[starfish2000]

But my problem is the colossal waste in the system that UK Journalists have been too lazy to report.

If you read the UK Rail press there are some voices that draw attention to this, but the mainstream media seems intent on lying to the UK electorate. Its all rather sinister

 

[friedaweed]

But my problem is the colossal waste in the system that UK Journalists have been too lazy to report.

If you read the UK Rail press there are some voices that draw attention to this, but the mainstream media seems intent on lying to the UK electorate. Its all rather sinister

Ahem! cough cough as the obvious resident UK Rail Press expert here....

Can you come and justify your hubcap robbing claims on the other choo choo twain thread please Mr Gobshite Starfish

But then they have a largely poor customer base, who a large proportion of fare evade anyway so perhaps thats why they've gone down this route.

I've been digging around for your evidence for you but it would appear that rail staff forums are full of threads of how rail workers can evade fares on other networks using their discount cards outside of their intended jurisdiction I can't find much to support your claims. Plus looking at the demographics of the network's coverage its looking a bit wealthy on it's user base but then you would expect that of a service that moves tourists and workers around so many places. Actually when you look at the data it would seem that most of the poor locals use the bus.

Anyway....


Come and back up your claims about us all being poor people who have an affliction for not paying for things now there's a good lad.

There's a couple of other forums awaiting your evidence as well including me mate Dave the driver of the Wirral Line who thinks his run is full of posh happy cunts

 

[Dogsauce]

The same companies operate London buses. The difference is in the way they are regulated. In London there is the political will to maintain something like TfL that controls the way the services are provided, because people in London rely on having an efficient public transport system. Local authorities in other parts of the UK could and should be doing the same, but generally it doesn't happen because most people just accept that they live in a car dependent society and don't care about public transport.

Boris has massively increased bus fares in London, although they're still cheaper than most of the rest of the country. Trains in London are used by well-heeled commuters that will kick up a stink if fares are raised, buses tend not to be (though they have a higher number of users). It's political.

The council and Metro authority here in Leeds voted to go for a 'quality bus contracts' model like TFL has (the last government was keen to promote these) but this government has threatened to cut grants if they go ahead with this, with a minister quoting that there was 'no place' for these arrangements (I guess except for London). The big bus companies have been lobbying against them quite strongly. I suspect some of the fare cuts we had in Leeds last year (fairly substantial) might be an attempt to soften a hostile public, who'd pretty much like to see Moir Lockhead's head on a spike.

 

[DotCommunist]

London people on the rock and roll can get amazing concession fares with an oyster. You can cross half the city for peanuts. Try that round here and its an 8 quid return

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Boris has massively increased bus fares in London, although they're still cheaper than most of the rest of the country.

He has. He's increased them from a quid to 1.45.

However, taking a longer view, the service in London (new routes and masses more night buses) has been improved hugely in the last 20 years while in real terms fares have not gone up. When I first moved to London in the early 90s, a fare from zone 2 to zone 1 cost 1.20 or 1.50 at night. Now that same journey is 1.45.

Same story with the tube - improved service without hikes in fares. And that's the point of difference with the privatised rail, I think - trains have improved, but at the expense of massive standard-rate fare rises.

 

[Cid]

A note on that Sheffield fair: a) it's now £13.50. b) it's the route where you have to change at Doncaster; takes an extra 15-35 minutes. It's also not available in the morning (starts at 13:10, arrive 15:27). There is one £19.50 train at 5.46 (in at 08.34), it takes 2h 48m and you have to change (morning standard journeys take longer; 2h 17 as opposed to a bit over 2h in the afternoon), but you'd probably go for it as the surrounding fairs are £68-97. A month in advance. Fairs start to drop as the morning goes on; arriving before 12.00 there's one at £33.50 (in at 10.04) and one at £29 (in at 10.17)but the rest are at least £42. Afternoon arrival prices are better, most at £19-22 with a £13.50 every hour or so.

 

[starfish2000]

Ahem! cough cough as the obvious resident UK Rail Press expert here....

Can you come and justify your hubcap robbing claims on the other choo choo twain thread please Mr Gobshite Starfish


I've been digging around for your evidence for you but it would appear that rail staff forums are full of threads of how rail workers can evade fares on other networks using their discount cards outside of their intended jurisdiction I can't find much to support your claims. Plus looking at the demographics of the network's coverage its looking a bit wealthy on it's user base but then you would expect that of a service that moves tourists and workers around so many places. Actually when you look at the data it would seem that most of the poor locals use the bus.

Anyway....


Come and back up your claims about us all being poor people who have an affliction for not paying for things now there's a good lad.


There's a couple of other forums awaiting your evidence as well including me mate Dave the driver of the Wirral Line who thinks his run is full of posh happy cunts

Alex Warner who was a minor Director at Firstgroup at the time (I think it was Greyhound coaches) wrote an article a couple of years ago in a Rail trade magazine slagging off Liverpool stations aggressive signage, he compared it to the Stasi & I seem to remember the official response back from Liverpool Metro was that their approach was based on higher than average fare evasion due to travel poverty, that was the term they used themselves I think. If I find it online, I'll get a link, I've just had a look around, but can't see it online. I saw this article a while back & it stuck in my head.

If you know about the industry, then you'd know that most UK Rail Forums are full of the Rail enthusiast element. Thats not really representative of UK rail staff. If your caught abusing your PRIV, then its quicker to kick you out, Id sooner not loose my (by zero hour contract standards) incredibly good pension over trying to blag a fare that I'd get a generous discount for so most won't do that anyway.

Regarding forums Im pretty sure the last time I looked at UK Railchat it has descended into nothing more than a forum to discuss Arriva's restructuring of the Northern Franchise, so its not exactly representative of the UK's rail workers at the moment.

Im not an expert, but going back to my original point the stuff we hear as frontline is never reported, its all a matter of public record how a franchise works. So what gives???

I'd sooner hear some insight rather than a cheap personal shot to be honest. Stockbrokers & season ticket fraud aside, Commuter trains have short distance fare evasion carried out by people in travel poverty. Intercity fare evasion is carried out by wealthy professionals desperate to beat the system for themselves, rather than change it through political will for all.

I did find this blog http://www.fixmytransport.com/campaigns/implement-barriers-and-a-penalty-far

 

[friedaweed]

I'll snip the rest of the drivvel and squirming if you dont mind...

Im not an expert, but going back to my original point the stuff we hear as frontline is never reported, its all a matter of public record how a franchise works. So what gives???

This was your point that has been taken issue with...

they have a largely poor customer base, who a large proportion of fare evade anyway so perhaps thats why they've gone down this route.

Where's your evidence for this utter nonsense please Mr gobshite? You can sniffle and squirm all you like matey. You're comments are there for all to see. No 'cheap shots' just calling you for the cunt that you are. You spunked out those words now back them up or admit that you thought it would be funny to suggest that Merseyrail are taking a hard line on certain issues because.....wait for it...we're all poor thieving scousers ey ey ey calm down, lets nick a train La

Do us a favor Mr Resident Rail expert, respond to the challenge and back up your claim or slip under one full of scouse fair dodgers tomorrow hey

This isn't a cheap personal shot. You really are a dickhead if you think like that I'm glad you've at least admitted to having no insight into any of this but you thought it would be funny to still post your drivel as our resident Rail Press expert.

PM me when you'd like to come to the North West to discuss this strange opinion (No facts presented) , I have just the place for you to do it

http://www.which.co.uk/news/2014/02/merseyrail-tops-which-train-satisfaction-survey-354635/

 

[friedaweed]

starfish2000

We're trying to persuade Northern Rail to implement barriers and a penalty fares scheme at Manchester Piccadilly

Even your own link is about Manchester. Are we a scum fan perchance?

Just admit it dickhead you shot your mouth off and made a fucking idiot out of yourself. I'm fully aware of the situation with Northern Rail most Merseyrail users are. Merseyrail do a lot to keep customers informed about what is going on locally, regionally and nationally and some wanky shit that you read in some mag several years ago isn't excusing your load of shite comments is it ?

Here's your quote for all to see and I'm sorry it's a bit cross threaded but can someone else help this fucking dickhead and point out what's wrong with his factless statement

MerseyRail are known in the industry for a very stalinist customer service proposition.

But then they have a largely poor customer base, who a large proportion of fare evade anyway so perhaps thats why they've gone down this route.

I'll forward your comments onto them after your reply and yeah sorry if you think I'm having a cheep shot but you're acting like a prick in fairness

 

[DotCommunist]

did you just offer him out?

 

[friedaweed]

did you just offer him out?

Na I'm not a violent person dotty. I'd just love to see this prick stand on the steps of Lime Street station and spout his hubcap robbing scousers shite.

We're very proud of our trains and our regional identity

 

[teuchter]

Isn't fare evasion regarded as a noble act on u75 anyway? Why are you so worked up about the allegation?

 

[friedaweed]

Isn't fare evasion regarded as a noble act on u75 anyway? Why are you so worked up about the allegation?

I'm not worked up mate I've got too much on at the allotment to get flustered atm I'm just calling the cunt out for what he said. You figure out whats wrong with the statement

ETA
He claims to be in the know yet he can't produce any evidence to suggest we're mostly all poor fare dodgers on a network that has been top of the polls for the last few years for customer satisfaction. I don't doubt that people fare dodge

He's spouting the usual stereotype of scousers being poor and dishonest. The only factual thing he's put up to support this is about a neighboring network If you can't see the problem there then that's your problemo hombre

The original post is on the Merseyrail thread which is where I'll leave it now.

 

[starfish2000]

I seem to have upset your regional pride, which is your issue. I quite like Liverpool though.

Clearly Merseyrail have gone to all that effort because they like writing incredibly aggressive signs on their stations & trains. Theyve invested a fuck ton of money in station barriers for the fun of it & having a 30 man strong security team must just be for show. Sledgehammer to crack a walnut syndrome clearly. Or is this recent expenditure due to a report from 2003?

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-98612403.html

What does Network Rail make of the region?


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/rus documents/route utilisation strategies/merseyside/scope and draft for consultation/merseyside rus draft for consultation.pdf

There sthis paragraph on page 25 of the Route Utilisation Strategy Document for the area, section 3.5.1

'The economy of Liverpool in particular still shows signs of the post-war decline that afflicted Merseyside and the North West region as a whole, with most economic indicators lower than the national average"


My error clearly then.

On a final note listen to the language your using. Its the not rational is it?

Im from Derby, some people in Derby are cunts, most are lovely. on a pie chart its poorer than the national average with some really awful areas, if I hear someone talking about where Im from in a negative way, so what, even if its cliche'd. Im not so insecure to start using the sort of language you have towards me. So next time Im in Liverpool, I ll PM you & let you know. But I might have to bring a bottle of Sarson's Malt Vinegar with me.

 

[friedaweed]

I seem to have upset your regional pride, which is your issue. I quite like Liverpool though.

Clearly Merseyrail have gone to all that effort because they like writing incredibly aggressive signs on their stations & trains. Theyve invested a fuck ton of money in station barriers for the fun of it & having a 30 man strong security team must just be for show. Sledgehammer to crack a walnut syndrome clearly. Or is this recent expenditure due to a report from 2003?

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-98612403.html

What does Network Rail make of the region?


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/rus documents/route utilisation strategies/merseyside/scope and draft for consultation/merseyside rus draft for consultation.pdf

There sthis paragraph on page 25 of the Route Utilisation Strategy Document for the area, section 3.5.1

'The economy of Liverpool in particular still shows signs of the post-war decline that afflicted Merseyside and the North West region as a whole, with most economic indicators lower than the national average"


My error clearly then.

On a final note listen to the language your using. Its the not rational is it?

Im from Derby, some people in Derby are cunts, most are lovely. on a pie chart its poorer than the national average with some really awful areas, if I hear someone talking about where Im from in a negative way, so what, even if its cliche'd. Im not so insecure to start using the sort of language you have towards me. So next time Im in Liverpool, I ll PM you & let you know. But I might have to bring a bottle of Sarson's Malt Vinegar with me.

Ohh get you Tarquin.

Cliche'd you say. At last. That's exactly why you got the sort of language you deserve but I appologise if you can't take a bit of northern straight talk. I know down there in the Shire you like to stroke eachothers three toes before you get colourful. Anyway our kid you're spouting that cliche as fact without having the grace to provide any evidence whilst also making out that you're in the know on the subject cos you once used to sell tickets from a cosy station and now you're walking up and down the train kicking people off it. I feel your pain bruv I use Arriva as well as Merseyrail If you don't want people calling you a cunt don't act like one.

These are your words on the thread...

MerseyRail are known in the industry for a very stalinist customer service proposition.

But then they have a largely poor customer base, who a large proportion of fare evade anyway so perhaps thats why they've gone down this route.

Yes lets talk about the language you're using in that statement shall we or can you see it for yourself now?? I've put it in red but I'm happy to come back and explain if you can't see where you're spouting a cliche rather than proving that this is the case.

I've not seen any evidence for this posted by you. It's not about you knocking my regional pride it's about you spouting a cliche but trying to present it as a 'well known industry fact'. When in fact it's a well known industry fact that Merseyrail is thriving. I'm not proud of that because it's a regional orgasm it's a fact. One which I have laden you with evidence for. Every train station in the land is putting up ticket barriers dodo because they're cheaper than fuckin human beings I know people fare evade on Merseyrail because I see people getting nabbed all the time. At Central station in Liverpool you will always see the odd bod getting hit whilst they squirm and try and claim the ticket machine was down when they got on, in fact for many of them that is the case and they're trying to negotiate a fare rather that a standard £10 fine. Yes the odd one in a station that according to your nice evidence you've provided me with serves 14 million people a year. I've read the whole doc, thanks for that cos it gave me some infor for work see. I couldn't find anything that would even losely fit you claim though other than yeah we all know Liverpool, Halton and the Wirral spent years in the top indicies for socioeconomic deprivation from Thatcher's 80's to new Labours Naughtys. We know that cos we live here.


From your document which I have taken the time to completely read and which shows no evidence to back up your claim that

MerseyRail are known in the industry for a very stalinist customer service proposition.

But then they have a largely poor customer base, who a large proportion of fare evade anyway so perhaps thats why they've gone down this route.

it does say...

Despite current economic problems in the UK,
it is anticipated that the rail passenger and
freight market in Merseyside will continue to
grow over the next decade.

It is forecast that overall passenger numbers
will grow by almost 40 percent by 2015
The city has experienced over two million extra
rail travelers associated with its designation
as the 2008 European Capital City of Culture.
It is believed a legacy will remain despite the
current economic climate. Passenger growth in
central Liverpool is expected to grow at around
four percent per annum until 2010 because a number of major city centre office and retail
developments have recently opened near the
main railway stations.

Actual passenger growth surpassed these projections by far and has seen Merseyrail carry more people to work and more shoppers and tourists into Liverpool than ever before. Merseyrails passengers are earning and spending Money in Liverpool mate which is why Liverpool is surviving the current financial crisis and not on it's arse like it was 30 years ago. The state of the pound against the rest of the world has seen more tourists hit Merseyrail with their Yen, Euro, Dollar and pound than we could of imagined when the current economic crisis struck.

Now please if you would....
Who is the largely poor customer base that you talk about that use Stalinrail ? Honestly. I'm sorry if you find my colorful language threatening but you really are acting a prick trying to stand by that statement. I'll take you for a pint in Doctor Duncan's next time you're in Liverpool and you can discuss this with local people. All Scousers ever talk about is the state of Liverpool and it's in a better state than it's been for yonks. But the big fuckton of point that you're missing here is Merseyrail doesnt just service Liverpool. Me personally, I live in that largely poor area of Cheshire that is serviced by Merseyrail and I will have to travel through the bronx of the Wirral peninsular to the bar to make sure as my guest I buy the first round (That's regional pride) but don't worry once I've cleared Port Sunlighthannersburg Village I'll text you with a realistic ETA

Or is this recent expenditure due to a report from 2003?

You do know it's 2014 don't you? I'm fully aware of the socio-demographic factors about the region I live and work in. It's my job to have some (Well a lot actually but then I've never been one to wave my work willy on urban) knowledge on this subject as well plums and I know that your statement is a crock of shite not because I don't believe that some bloke said it in an article or at a conference a few years ago but based on the actual current state of affairs.

Nothing you have produced here backs up your words presented as fact on the Merseyrail thread. Thems clearly being.....

MerseyRail are known in the industry for a very stalinist customer service proposition.

But then they have a largely poor customer base, who a large proportion of fare evade anyway so perhaps thats why they've gone down this route.

If what you said was true it would be on it's knees not thriving but then hey you're the expert on trains here

Much of the recent "Stalinist customer service proposition" actually relates to what customers wanted not what was forced upon them and if you do your research properly you'll find the truth is out there. In your field of expertise too

Now I'm happy to keep up this game of ping pong but in respect to the thread we're on now can we leave it here and go back to the origin of your cliche delivery?

 

[starfish2000]

The railways on a whole are thriving because there was no investment in UK Rail during the 1980's so we are playing catch up with where we ought to be. Ive got Europe's largest civil engineering project being bashed up opposite my flat. The route I work is being electrified, the route I go to work on is being electrified.

You've not really explained why they need a 30 man security team? Thats a lot of bodies for the mileage. If MerseyRails own customers requested that, why do they feel so unsafe? SIA licensed railway teams are not cheap, why so many in your Utopia?

Your calling a kid from a council estate Tarquin? Yet your offended by Cliche?

Im off before this turns into the Monty Python Four Yorkshireman sketch

 

[Greebo]

London people on the rock and roll can get amazing concession fares with an oyster. You can cross half the city for peanuts. Try that round here and its an 8 quid return

Only on buses or the tram - you don't get the same reduction on the tube or AFAIK overground and network rail. Try going even 2 miles in London by bus, it's agonisingly slow. You'd have to be dirt poor and time rich to think a longer bus journey was worth it.

BTW the concession can only be obtained after registering your Oyster card and presenting a load of paperwork from the DWP (this has to be requested by phone, which is a joy unlike any other). It has to be renewed every 3 months. I prefer to pay full fare, partly on principle (I refuse to link my Oyster to my address and banking details) and partly because I have enough red tape to deal with as it is.

 

[hash tag]

Clapham Junction to Fareham ( possibly the most car dependent area in UK ) was £66. The return from Portsmouth was £75. There was no way of getting even a cup tea on either train. The return from the harbour ran late and there was no way of getting a tea or paper at or near the station and the WiFi was crap. Trying to buy tickets on the machine we were offered Southern and AP Southern. We had no idea what that was. When going to ticket office, the sales person was not particular friendly and condescending

 

[Riklet]

I hope all these train companies go bust what with the pandemic. Fuck em.

Teutcher you are still wrong. Train fares are a rip off (def worst in Europe) and no one in their right mind is going to be ripped off commuting again daily any time soon.

 

[T & P]

Clapham Junction to Fareham ( possibly the most car dependent area in UK ) was £66. The return from Portsmouth was £75. There was no way of getting even a cup tea on either train. The return from the harbour ran late and there was no way of getting a tea or paper at or near the station and the WiFi was crap. Trying to buy tickets on the machine we were offered Southern and AP Southern. We had no idea what that was. When going to ticket office, the sales person was not particular friendly and condescending

It’s a fucking joke. You would be able to travel the entire breadth of every other country in Europe for less than that.

 

[The39thStep]

It’s a fucking joke. You would be able to travel the entire breadth of every other country in Europe for less than that.

I went from the Algarve to Lisbon ( just under 3 hours) first class for 30 euros

 

[teuchter]

Sounds like you were sold the wrong tickets. Unless you were traveling at peak time. If that was based on advice from the ticket office I'd make a complaint.

 

[Dogsauce]

I went from the Algarve to Lisbon ( just under 3 hours) first class for 30 euros

Wasn’t much more than that going all the way Faro to Porto when I did it last year, possibly €38.

 

[hash tag]

Sounds like you were sold the wrong tickets. Unless you were traveling at peak time. If that was based on advice from the ticket office I'd make a complaint.

Clapham to Fareham was about 08.15 and Portsmouth to Clapham about 18:00 but both against the rush hour.

 

[T & P]

Clapham to Fareham was about 08.15 and Portsmouth to Clapham about 18:00 but both against the rush hour.

It’s not even just during peak times. About 6-7 years ago we were going to a work colleague’s wedding reception, travelling in the afternoon on a Saturday from Tulse Hill or any other reasonably nearby stations to either Arundel or a station in the general area, can’t remember which one it was now, and returning that evening.

The cheapest return fares we could find online were just shy of £50. Each. To travel off peak late of a Saturday for all of 50-odd miles each way.

So we ended up driving. I had to give up any prospect of drinking at the wedding, but fuck paying a hundred quid for two people to travel such a short distance and back. Fuck knows how much more it would cost now, six years later.

 

[teuchter]

Clapham to Fareham was about 08.15 and Portsmouth to Clapham about 18:00 but both against the rush hour.

Then it looks to me like you should have been able to get a return ticket for about £37 if you were coming back same day. If coming back on a different day it would be about £75 return.

 

[teuchter]

It’s not even just during peak times. About 6-7 years ago we were going to a work colleague’s wedding reception, travelling in the afternoon on a Saturday from Tulse Hill or any other reasonably nearby stations to either Arundel or a station in the general area, can’t remember which one it was now, and returning that evening.

The cheapest return fares we could find online were just shy of £50. Each. To travel off peak late of a Saturday for all of 50-odd miles each way.

So we ended up driving. I had to give up any prospect of drinking at the wedding, but fuck paying a hundred quid for two people to travel such a short distance and back. Fuck knows how much more it would cost now, six years later.

Off peak day return tulse hill to Arundel is £30. Or £20 with a network Railcard which pays for itself after one or two trips. Most places on the south coast are something like that. I frequently do weekend day trips to Kent or Sussex for twenty-something quid.

 

[teuchter]

Three problem with fares in the UK is not so much the price but the complexity of options. For people who don't travel by train much it's really easy to end up paying loads more than you need to. You need to know your way around the ticket options a bit. It shouldn't be like that; I've supported various campaigns to simplify them over the past couple of decades. The last fares simplification was a complete cop-out. Supposedly there will be one coming soon and will see what it produces.