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"The UK has the most expensive train fares in Europe"

I've travelled a lot by train in Germany and the Netherlands and cringe every time I have to travel by train in the UK. It is very expensive, the service is shite and what's all the crap about peak time fares? Not something I've come across before, a fare is the same no matter when you travel, in the two countries I have experience of.
 
I used to have a monthly season ticket for commuting in Milan.

It covered all buses. All trams. The underground. Local trains.

All routes, including the airport. Any time.

€30

You could get it further discounted if you were a concession, concessionary fares were available to "young workers" as well as the normal groups.

Annual tickets were of course even cheaper.

For a monthly bus pass (and just buses, nothing else) in the Reading area it costs £90.
 
teuchter said:
It's quite a tenuous conspiracy theory. He worked for the DfT seven years ago, therefore he is probably distorting the facts about UK fares relative to European ones? Even though he now makes his living from running seat61 which is a website helping people to find the best routes and fares for train travel in Europe?

He is quite clear about the fact that fares in the UK are expensive in certain circumstances:

Where doesn't he compare like with like?

He says that it's his understanding that about 10-15% of journeys on intercity routes are peak walk-up fares - are you saying he's lying, or just completely making it up without having any actual knowledge?

What are your "other sources" that suggest that the UK has the most expensive fares in Europe - are they better than the kind of dodgy newspaper articles posted above?
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Rail fares have been going up for years above inflation - well beyond the time he left the DfT. I can't believe he would be inclined to criticise a legacy that he was responsible for even if he's no longer responsible for it. I'm more inclined to believe this is just a selective analysis of european fares to give certain people the ability to spin the story the other way.

Look at the rail fares he is comparing.. two of them suggest the UK are well above their euro equivalents. The other two are off-peak comparisons but he misses out doing a peak comparison so it only tells half the story. I don't dispute that if you get certain advance tickets then there is a case that the UK may be able to provide a cheaper deal than these equivalents in Europe but I believe it only accounts for a fraction of what most people need (i.e. off peak travel on certain routes). My reckoning is that the vast majority of people who travel (who need peak travel times) are being disproportionately overcharged and many of these are probably people who have already been priced out of living in the city, so have bought places outside and rely on being able to afford to commute to get by.

If you look at the other two articles I quoted in the other thread, you'll see the data for the London to Manchester route which it says is the most expensive in Europe, and then there's there's other ridiculously priced routes like the Heathrow Express, or the Charing Cross to Embankment which, although isn't an overland thing, or a route I'd ever take.. does exemplify the extent to which one can get severely shafted if you don't understand the complexities of rail fares which exist in this country.
 
skyscraper101 said:
does exemplify the extent to which one can get severely shafted if you don't understand the complexities of rail fares which exist in this country.
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Yes this is another factor, even as a non-German/Dutch speaker it's dead easy getting tickets there and no worries about falling into an "expensive alternative" trap. In UK even as an English speaker I have problems navigating through the system and finding the right hoops to jump through to get a "good deal".
 
At £20, the Heathrow Express is almost certainly the most expensive form of transportation on a cost per mile basis in human history, easily beating Concorde and all other forms of travel bar taking a trip on Richard Branson's sub-orbital spacecraft. The Stanstead Express covers more miles but it is still extraordinarily poor value for money at 23 fucking quid- often costing more than the flight the passengers just got off.

It's nothing less than a cunting disgrace and a monumental rip-off, and something that tragically many people here have come to see as acceptable prices.
 
Then again UK rail fares have to cost more than European ones as the UK government wants to lower the subsidy given to rail and make the passengers pay the full cost. Which is odd as motorists are heavily subsidised by non-motorists, so why not rail passengers?
 
If you're seeking to compare overall prices, how about adding up all the journeys to find a length and dividing by total price paid? Include all peak and season ticket journeys. Then compare figures.

And by that I mean actual journeys and actual tickets bought. Given that the majority of rail companies' money comes from peak/season tickets, I would suspect that the UK would do quite badly in such a comparison.

It still won't capture everything, as quality of service, likelihood of getting a seat, speed of train, etc, won't be included, but it's a start. After that, you can look at the breakdown of prices and see how the structures differ.

One thing's for sure, if I get a phone call this afternoon asking me to a job interview tomorrow morning at ten, I will have two choices here in the UK: pay an extortionate fare, or try to bunk the train.
 
I work in the rail industry & what Im amazed by is the fact that no UK Journalists or news programmes really get to grips with what a passenger franchise actually is. Its a 500 sided Rubik's cube of legalese & promises. The public loose interest so theres never any critical exploration of this puzzle. But there are so many ways for a TOC to beat the system & making it work on their terms. Add to that that the government have an agenda for it to be seen as better than British Rail.

For example the trains are owned by banks and leased to the franchise holder on the same terms as if you get at Bright House the weekly payments store. I mean would you lease a £500 television for £5000 and never own it over the life of a TV...you wouldn't would you. But thats how all this new rolling stock is financed....now all of this is in the public domain. So why isn't it reported?

The BBC did a Panorama special on the railways in 2012, it was advertised as "exposing scandal", in fact the whole programme was a very uncritical PR piece for the Chiltern Railways model. So the next day I get a disgruntled passenger on my train & he tells me "I work for the BBC" as if thats some kind of threat? I almost laughed out loud at him.

Until theres a serious cost exploration of the whole system, the public will continue to be kept in the dark.
 
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starfish2000 said:
Until theres a serious cost exploration of the whole system, the public will continue to be kept in the dark.
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One figure the private operators like to throw about is that the amount of a rail ticket that is 'profit' for the operator is just 3%.

This doesn't tend to reveal the many other ways in which money is extracted from the system as profit compared to a publicly owned system. As you've stated, rolling stock charges is a big one, particularly in the early days of privatisation when operators were paying massive charges for stock that had already been paid for out of the public pocket and sold off dirt cheap. There's also multiple layers of consultants and contractors involved in construction and maintenance right through the system, all taking a cut.
 
Over the last few weeks I've had to work a couple of days a week in London - due to the chaotic nature of the business I work in pre-planned journeys are not really an option - so I've ended up getting tickets at the weekend for travel that coming week

The difference between first and second class was <£10 so I allowed myself to be treated to an upgrade - that meant, with a zone 1-2 travel card included each day worked out at £210 give or take shrapnel

Out of those 7 journeys into work

1 train was totally cancelled due to a previous days train breaking down in a tunnel somewhere - the second train of the day ran well over an hour late

1 train ran 30 minutes late

1 train ran 20 minutes late due to either a fire or a gas leak near the track resulting in the train being re-routed

1 train ran without a buffet - now I know this isn't that important but I liked my breakfast and not to have this as advertise when paying £200+ for a ticket did irk me slightly

So out of 7 days travelling 4 days had something wrong with them
 
High Voltage said:
So out of 7 days travelling 4 days had something wrong with them
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You lucky, lucky bastard!



At the start of the year I was coming in from Shepperton to Waterloo. Shepperton is 15 miles from Charring Cross. During the month of January only 2 journeys ran on time, many days the line was shut with bus replacements (total journey time then 3.5 hours each way!) Must be the worse line going, yet it is more expensive than going from Walton-on-Thames which is 3 miles away and has a much faster and reliable service. Madness.
 
High Voltage said:
Over the last few weeks I've had to work a couple of days a week in London - due to the chaotic nature of the business I work in pre-planned journeys are not really an option - so I've ended up getting tickets at the weekend for travel that coming week

The difference between first and second class was <£10 so I allowed myself to be treated to an upgrade - that meant, with a zone 1-2 travel card included each day worked out at £210 give or take shrapnel

Out of those 7 journeys into work

1 train was totally cancelled due to a previous days train breaking down in a tunnel somewhere - the second train of the day ran well over an hour late

1 train ran 30 minutes late

1 train ran 20 minutes late due to either a fire or a gas leak near the track resulting in the train being re-routed

1 train ran without a buffet - now I know this isn't that important but I liked my breakfast and not to have this as advertise when paying £200+ for a ticket did irk me slightly

So out of 7 days travelling 4 days had something wrong with them
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thing is, I spent a few weeks on the continent this summer, in Germany, Denmark and Sweden.

Brussels to Koln - late departure
Koln to Berlin - three trains, one overcrowded with standing room only, two with doors out of service, one with whole carriage closed off due to AC malfunction
Berlin to Sweden - no problems
2 journeys within Germany - ok
Denmark - 2 journeys, one two hours late to destnation, other one ok
Sweden - one sevice wrongly advertised as carrying bikes, another one about 20 mins late, then another one about an hour and a half late, another one fine
Denmark back to Germany - severely overcrowded, had to stand for about 3 or 4 hours
Remaining trains in Germany back to UK - ok.

I genuinely don't think delays etc in the UK are worse than most other European countries.

See also this thread I did a while back

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/your-perception-of-rail-travel-in-the-uk.230870/#post-8353688
 
I had to do a walk on fare Euston to Birmingham the other week to pick up a van. £82! :eek:

That's almost a pound per minute
 
teuchter said:
thing is, I spent a few weeks on the continent this summer, in Germany, Denmark and Sweden.

Brussels to Koln - late departure
Koln to Berlin - three trains, one overcrowded with standing room only, two with doors out of service, one with whole carriage closed off due to AC malfunction
Berlin to Sweden - no problems
2 journeys within Germany - ok
Denmark - 2 journeys, one two hours late to destnation, other one ok
Sweden - one sevice wrongly advertised as carrying bikes, another one about 20 mins late, then another one about an hour and a half late, another one fine
Denmark back to Germany - severely overcrowded, had to stand for about 3 or 4 hours
Remaining trains in Germany back to UK - ok.

I genuinely don't think delays etc in the UK are worse than most other European countries.

See also this thread I did a while back

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/your-perception-of-rail-travel-in-the-uk.230870/#post-8353688
Click to expand...

Based on that then no probably UK train services are just as shit as they are elsewhere - but that's kind of a point - infrastructure in general is staring to slide to a level that "not that long ago" simply would not have bee accepted

I must admit I like the (anecdotal granted) example of the Japanese where when a train ran late all of the passengers got together and tipped the damn thing over - trains don't run late in Japan
 
Despite all the clichés about late trains and cancellations at the first dusting of snow, AFAIK the UK rail network doesn't show up too badly in terms of reliability, punctuality or resilience in bad weather. The major exception, and the source of a lot of complaints, is the third-rail electrified network in the south-east, which is vulnerable because the conductor rails ice up. Moreover, because it's so crowded and timings are so tight, a problem in one area can have huge knock-on effects. Unfortunately there's not a lot that can be done about any of this without spending untold billions. That said, the new lines through London Bridge should help to clear one of the major bottlenecks.

I suppose the other major problem area is the East Coast Main Line. British Rail said from the off that the budget they were given was too tight and corners would have to be cut. They managed the project pretty much on time and in budget (in sharp contrast to the expensive fiasco of the West Coast Main Line upgrade!), but they've been proved right ever since, because the overhead line equipment isn't strong enough and the wires have a nasty habit of coming down in high winds. I suspect the cost of upgrading it all is far too high for it to happen any time soon, unfortunately. It's a classic example of spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar.
 
Not all the journeys in germany were ok, if you read my list carefully, nor the one from denmark run by DB. In my opinion DB is lapsing in standard generally compared to some years ago. They are also increasingly acting in a commercially aggressive way, for example running cross border bus services in competition with other state owned railways. Being state owned doesn't magically make everything ok.
 
skyscraper101 said:
$9.59 average to travel 100k in the UK? Love to know how they worked that figure out.
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I can do that down here. 6 quid or so for a 60 mile day return. that's a walk on fair with a local railcard that costs a tenner a year. fares to london aren't that bad either. an advance can be had for under 20 quid if you catch the timing right and aren't fussy about when you travel. it's anyhting else that's the fucking problem though. flying to birmingham cost me half what the train fair would have. and anything other than a day return ticket locally works out a lot more per mile.

but imo, that's the absolute best price, not the average.
 
Roadkill said:
Despite all the clichés about late trains and cancellations at the first dusting of snow, AFAIK the UK rail network doesn't show up too badly in terms of reliability, punctuality or resilience in bad weather. The major exception, and the source of a lot of complaints, is the third-rail electrified network in the south-east, which is vulnerable because the conductor rails ice up.
Click to expand...
Yep, those seize up in cold weather. Ironically, the older diesel trains on the south coast are much more resilient.

I'm sure you're right that the Uk's averagely ok wrt punctuality. A fair few lines have been improved over the last 20 years, too. But the year on year fare increases at way over inflation are adding up now, and standard prices on many peak journeys in the south east at least have nearly doubled in little more than a decade.

And that's the answer, Teuchter, about private/public. If the trains were publicly owned, we would be able, however imperfectly, to hold politicians to account for remorseless fare increases. They would be forced to finance improvements not only through fare rises, and simply wouldn't get away with annual hikes at three times inflation. Public ownership opens up the possibility to demand a more equitable system. Private ownership closes that possibility down.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yep, those seize up in cold weather. Ironically, the older diesel trains on the south coast are much more resilient.

I'm sure you're right that the Uk's averagely ok wrt punctuality. A fair few lines have been improved over the last 20 years, too. But the year on year fare increases at way over inflation are adding up now, and standard prices on many peak journeys in the south east at least have nearly doubled in little more than a decade.

And that's the answer, Teuchter, about private/public. If the trains were publicly owned, we would be able, however imperfectly, to hold politicians to account for remorseless fare increases. They would be forced to finance improvements not only through fare rises, and simply wouldn't get away with annual hikes at three times inflation. Public ownership opens up the possibility to demand a more equitable system. Private ownership closes that possibility down.
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FWIW I think we do have a better railway now than twenty years ago - much better in some respects - but the improvements have been bought at disproportionate cost, mainly because the industry as it is now organised is inherently inefficient and expensive to run.

I do think the railways should be renationalised, and that a publicly-owned and vertically integrated system could potentially be a lot more efficient than what we have now, but
teuchter is right that public ownership isn't a panacea. British Rail was IIRC (I'm working so no time to check) sticking up fares on some routes faster in the 80s than what is happening now, and given that the government exerts a lot more day-to-day control over the railway now than it did in BR's day I'm not convinced that public ownership is necessarily a channel for demanding 'a more equitable system' either, although it potentially could be.
 
Roadkill said:
British Rail was IIRC (I'm working so no time to check) sticking up fares on some routes faster in the 80s than what is happening now, and given that the government exerts a lot more day-to-day control over the railway now than it did in BR's day I'm not convinced that public ownership is necessarily a channel for demanding 'a more equitable system' either, although it potentially could be.
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Well a railways-hating tory govt isn't going to be good news. But I'd cite London as an example of a place where fares on the tube and buses have not sky-rocketed while improvements are made, and where there is political capital to be made out of fare controls. With a tory mayor, we've seen fares slide up, but even a tory mayor has to be wary of fare increases. I just don't see that in the private system, where peak fares are routinely increased at or near the maximum the law allows - travellers are screwed and know they are being screwed, but they're stuck with it. Without some kind of democratic accountability, they can and will just continue to exploit their monopoly position.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
But I'd cite London as an example of a place where fares on the tube and buses have not sky-rocketed while improvements are made, and where there is political capital to be made out of fare controls. With a tory mayor, we've seen fares slide up, but even a tory mayor has to be wary of fare increases.
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London is very different to the rest of the UK though - most people use and rely on public transport. Hence a large proportion of the Mayor's electorate rate it as a high priority.

In most of the rest of the UK we still have a horribly car-dependent society, and spending loads of money on public transport infrastructure isn't seen as a vote-winner in the same way it is in London. So many people are wedded to their cars and want the money spent on roads instead.
 
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