The UK banking system

[slaar]

Coincident with what? What does Europe have to do with any of this?

Bankruptcies are rising, which means too many people have borrowed too much and get to write off their debt so that banks can't collect money that was previously owed for them. I'd expect you to be encouraging that sort of behaviour.

 

[zArk]

Coincident with what? What does Europe have to do with any of this?

other than the economical implications?

Bankruptcies are rising, which means too many people have borrowed too much and get to write off their debt so that banks can't collect money that was previously owed for them. I'd expect you to be encouraging that sort of behaviour.

Ermm hold on, the increasing Bankruptcies shows that the National Debt has gotten to such a level that it is effectively trimming off the excess.

The country has reached a plateau economically. Can the GDP increase equally or more than the national debt ? doesnt look like it. In fact historically this is a one-sided race

 

[kyser_soze]

HA haha...more sense, fact and evidence free jollies from zArk.

zArk - national debt is government, not private debt.

And I haven't noticed the BoE going round seizing people's property deed (which is where most of that debt is invested in)

The debt figure you want to be looking at is that of unmanageable debt, which is what causes bankruptcy.

But that would be sensible and logical wouldn't it?

 

[A Dashing Blade]

blah blah . . .
So what we have is a National Debt, ND,which is almost 100% of the GDP.
. . .

I've shown you this one before zArk, do you remember?

National debt is Government Debt.

"At the end of 2005 general government debt was £525.9 billion, equivalent to 42.8 per cent of GDP."
source : http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=277

I also note on your nice chart that the main constituant of the debt growth is "Total Secured Lending" (the yellow lines). Secured in this context means "secured against assets".

I trust your Masters wasn't in Economics?

 

[zArk]

I've shown you this one before zArk, do you remember?

National debt is Government Debt.

"At the end of 2005 general government debt was £525.9 billion, equivalent to 42.8 per cent of GDP."
source : http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=277

I also note on your nice chart that the main constituant of the debt growth is "Total Secured Lending" (the yellow lines). Secured in this context means "secured against assets".

excuse me, my mistake. *public debt*

ok, so lets throw that figure ontop of the £1.3 trillion. You seem to have this idea that the money the government borrow is completely different to the money the public borrows in the form of credit cards and mortgages. Its all Pounds Sterling debt from the Bank of England.

*secured against assests* so? its all pounds sterling.
1971 a £4,000 house is now worth £250,000
the value of the pound has depreciated vastly. Yeah, i know it seems like you would have more money but the reason the price has gone up is because the value of the pound has been reduced.

Bankruptcies are up, unemployment is growing. Credit is doing nothing but creating even more of a problem.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

ok, so lets throw that figure ontop of the £1.3 trillion. You seem to have this idea that the money the government borrow is completely different to the money the public borrows in the form of credit cards and mortgages. Its all Pounds Sterling debt from the Bank of England.

Er, and we've been through this one as well, it starts on post number 190ish on this thread.

"money the government borrow" [sic] is in the form of Government Bond sales to the international fiancial community. They buy new bond issues through an auction process conducted by the Bank Of England.

 

[zArk]

I trust your Masters wasn't in Economics?

in common-sense it seems.

You get baffled by these figures and probably think. OOOO £250,000 great that means i have more money, as if the value is stable.
You probably see 97.9p a litre of petrol and think that the oil companies are increasing the price... duh! its the value of the pound that has been reduced.

This world has been turned upside down and most people are willfully ignorant.

 

[kyser_soze]

This world has been turned upside down and most people are willfully ignorant.

*falls off chair laughing loudly*

Ahh, you're a one eh, zArk? Never let reality, learning or understanding of others get in the way of what you think eh?

 

[zArk]

Er, and we've been through this one as well, it starts on post number 190ish on this thread.

"money the government borrow" [sic] is in the form of Government Bond sales to the international fiancial community. They buy new bond issues through an auction process conducted by the Bank Of England.

so why then doesnt the government just print the money instead of issuing a bond? its the same thing, plus then the government could charge interest on that money and plug it back into the economy

why?

 

[zArk]

*falls off chair laughing loudly*

Ahh, you're a one eh, zArk? Never let reality, learning or understanding of others get in the way of what you think eh?

reality -- oo golly you start also.

explain to me what reality is.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

excuse me, my mistake. *public debt*

I think you really mean "unsecured consumer debt" don't you?

*secured against assests* so? its all pounds sterling.
1971 a £4,000 house is now worth £250,000
the value of the pound has depreciated vastly. Yeah, i know it seems like you would have more money but the reason the price has gone up is because the value of the pound has been reduced.

You are confusing depreciation (ie against another currency) and inflation.

Secured against assets means that if the debt is not paid, then the borrower has a legal charge on the secured asset ie can sell it (ie there IS money to pay off the debt.

Plus, and again from your chart, looks to me like consumer credit card debt is only about 10% of the total figure.

 

[zArk]

You are confusing depreciation and inflation.

nope. The pound is a commodity and an exchange mechanism.

therefore the term depreciation is quite correct.

Secured against assets means that if the debt is not paid, then the borrower has a legal charge on the secured asset ie can sell it (ie there IS money to pay off the debt

whose money? from where? Its all Bank of England produce.

Plus, and again from your chart, looks to me like consumer credit card debt is only about 10% of the total figure

oh so thats only £100 billion. heh

 

[A Dashing Blade]

so why then doesnt the government just print the money instead of issuing a bond? its the same thing,

As I seem to recall explaining to you after post 190ish, this is what is meant by governments "printing money"

plus then the government could charge interest on that money and plug it back into the economy
why?

This doesn't really make much sence as a question, but as a starting point, I refer you to pre WW2 German economic history.

 

[zArk]

This doesn't really make much sence as a question, but as a starting point, I refer you to pre WW2 German economic history.

no it doesnt at all, does it? so why let the Bank of England attempt to do it?
its a retarded system.

 

[zArk]

Erm . . . the UK govt has redeemed (ie paid back) a shedfull of gilts over the last 20 years (this is the reason the UK Govt retains it's triple A credit rating, the UK Govt has not defaulted on any Govt bonds over the last 200 years). In fact, the lack of long dated Govt paper is a significant factor in exacerbating the current pensions "crisis".

Money should not be a commodity. The only reason it is, is for enslavement purposes. UK Gov has a aaa rating.. wooo hooo. So we can all pick and choose the bank we use... ermm nope.... cause the BoE has the monopoly.

What use does this aaa rating have?

 

[A Dashing Blade]

no it doesnt at all, does it? . .

Sorry, I'll rephrase. What you have written is incomprehensible, it makes no grammatic sense, it bears closer approximation to a string of random words than something that an English speaker can understand.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . . So we can all pick and choose the bank we use...
. . .
What use does this aaa rating have?

No, it means that the Govt can borrow money ("print money", issue bonds) at a lower interest rate than countries/institutions with a lower rating. (Google "Moodys", "S&P" and "Fitch" for more info.)

 

[zArk]

Sorry, I'll rephrase. What you have written is incomprehensible, it makes no grammatic sense, it bears closer approximation to a string of random words than something that an English speaker can understand.

instead you could quote the entire question and not take it out of context

so why then doesnt the government just print the money instead of issuing a bond? its the same thing, plus then the government could charge interest on that money and plug it back into the economy

why?

so the second why? is a confirmation of the question in the first sentence.

cant you see why the system is stupid?

 

[zArk]

No, it means that the Govt can borrow money ("print money", issue bonds) at a lower interest rate than countries/institutions with a lower rating. (Google "Moodys", "S&P" and "Fitch" for more info.)

lol. to borrow more money. What a joke.

i must reiterate my question;

why then doesnt the government just print the money instead of issuing a bond?

 

[A Dashing Blade]

why then doesnt the government just print the money instead of issuing a bond?

There arn't enough trees.

 

[zArk]

There arn't enough trees.

that makes sense cause the BoE grows its own trees, dont they?

 

[A Dashing Blade]

that makes sense cause the BoE grows its own trees, dont they?

Over £400bn of Gilts are outstsnding.
Largest bank note in the UK is £50, dimensions are 156mm * 85mm * 0.1mm.

400,000,000,000 / 50 = 8,000,000,000

100cm in a meter, 10mm in a cm so there are 10,000 0.1mm in a meter.

8,000,000,000/10,000 = 800,000m = 800km

So, total amount of Gilts in existance has a notional value equivilant to a pile of £50 notes 800km tall.

(FYI, the BoE issued 735m new bank notes in calander 2005, 12m of which were in £50's)

 

[zArk]

Over £400bn of Gilts are outstsnding

(FYI, the BoE issued 735m new bank notes in calander 2005, 12m of which were in £50's)

Excellent examples of this stupid system.

The value of all currencies has been reduced drastically;

this table shows 1980-2000
http://www.sunshinecable.com/~eisehan/V80-10en.htm

so really, why doesnt the government issue and print pounds instead of writing bonds or gilts?

why is it good that money is a commodity and an exchange mechanism?

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
why is it good that money is a commodity and an exchange mechanism?

Please read up on the term "Fiat Money" (hint - Fiat is not the car company in this context).

As with so much of the drivel that you spout, you use the wrong word in the wrong context.

 

[zArk]

Please read up on the term "Fiat Money" (hint - Fiat is not the car company in this context).

As with so much of the drivel that you spout, you use the wrong word in the wrong context.

not when money is a commodity and exchange mechanism.

You just cant accept the problematic nature of how our society is formed through this system.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

not when money is a commodity and exchange mechanism.

You don't know what Fiat Money is do you?
For the second time zArki, pease google it, then explain why you think "money is a commodity".

 

[Andy the Don]

lol. to borrow more money. What a joke.

i must reiterate my question;

why then doesnt the government just print the money instead of issuing a bond?

Because if you print & circulate more money without the economic strength to back it up you get hyper-inflation. Read your economic history of the Wiemar Republic & what is happening in modern day Zimbabwe.

 

[zArk]

Because if you print & circulate more money without the economic strength to back it up you get hyper-inflation. Read your economic history of the Wiemar Republic & what is happening in modern day Zimbabwe.

andy the don, i am not promoting the government to print and issue money ontop of the bank of englands debt based money, instead the interest-free money should replace the BoE's.
Pay off the debt through this system and thus after a few years have an economy based on money as an exchange mechanism and through that produce goods, services and industry.

 

[zArk]

You don't know what Fiat Money is do you?
For the second time zArki, pease google it, then explain why you think "money is a commodity".

DASHING BLADE. the bank of england is a factory -- it produces money. money is a commodity exactly the same as a 'chair', a 'car' but also this commodity is an exchange mechanism.

its a retarded system.

marx's capital is bollocks.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

not when money is a commodity and exchange mechanism.

why is it good that money is a commodity and an exchange mechanism?

Money should not be a commodity. The only reason it is, is for enslavement purposes.

To help you along zArk, here's the OED definition of Fiat in its montary context

"3. attrib., as fiat-power; fiat-money, U.S. money (such as an inconvertible paper currency) which is made legal tender by a 'fiat' of the government, without having an intrinsic or promissory value equal to its nominal value."

So, fiat money is not a commodity.