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The UK banking system

No that is stupid. We all have to stop believing in it! Thats never going to happen, what use is this to you in that case. Why are you telling everyone? Its not like you can end it PhilDwyer, the devil cannot be defeated. Only God can save us (clearly) and god to you is human labour or something, so its the exact same tactic as before but with evreyone believing in heaven.;

Sweet.
Or have I misrepresented your vission of how to destroy capitalism. Loopy :rolleyes:

Not that I would know anything though.
 
Beliefs are conditioned by historically-conditioned social relations, they can't just disappear. This thread is like a magnet for bizarre theories.
 
118118 said:
No that is stupid. We all have to stop believing in it! Thats never going to happen, what use is this to you in that case. Why are you telling everyone? Its not like you can end it PhilDwyer, the devil cannot be defeated. Only God can save us (clearly) and god to you is human labour or something, so its the exact same tactic as before but with evreyone believing in heaven.;

Sweet.
Or have I misrepresented your vission of how to destroy capitalism. Loopy :rolleyes:

Not that I would know anything though.
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Instead of stopping believing in it, why not change the banking system and remove interest charges so that money becomes a pure exchange mechanism and not both exchange mechanism and commodity?

You cant destroy capitalism because it doesnt exist. Ownership doesnt exist. Communism doesnt exist. All rely upon us looking at the world and arranging it through capitalism descriptions.
The reason your head will spin while attempting to re-arrange your thinking of the world is due to the basis of how we are taught to think.
Use value and exchange value, post-modernism and modernism, structuralism and post-stucturalism lock our thinking between them.
Marxs apriori existed outside capitalism - but even there you are still thinking within the system. Apriori of the social system is beyond the banking system.
 
kyser_soze said:
i see that phil and zArk finally found each other...:D
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Heh. I thought that.

You can't abolish interest under capitalism, you can change the conditions under which it operates but you can't abolish it. The whole point is that lenders give up the use of their assets to others for a certain time in return for future profit. The interest rate links future and current economic activity.

Unless anyone is suggesting an alternative mechanism for this (and no, Islamic Banking is not an answer, that just fudges the issue) then that's that.
 
zArk said:
Instead of stopping believing in it, why not change the banking system and remove interest charges so that money becomes a pure exchange mechanism and not both exchange mechanism and commodity?

You cant destroy capitalism because it doesnt exist. Ownership doesnt exist. Communism doesnt exist. All rely upon us looking at the world and arranging it through capitalism descriptions.
The reason your head will spin while attempting to re-arrange your thinking of the world is due to the basis of how we are taught to think.
Use value and exchange value, post-modernism and modernism, structuralism and post-stucturalism lock our thinking between them.
Marxs apriori existed outside capitalism - but even there you are still thinking within the system. Apriori of the social system is beyond the banking system.
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ahh so mister too hip for the modernism of Marx is just putting forward an idea of ideology that would make your average Stalinist blush.

Yes dear, it is all about our "mindset", all about the "false conciousness" we have foisted upon us. :rolleyes:

As I said some dimwitted student/wingnut who thinks they have discovered the "true" path to enlightenment.

cock!
 
Blagsta said:
Does that mean I can stop paying my rent? Cool, save meself £500/month. :cool:
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Idiot. Not only does property not exist, the 500 quid a month you pay in rent doesn't exist either. If you think it does, show it to me (or anyone).
 
118118 said:
No that is stupid. We all have to stop believing in it! Thats never going to happen, what use is this to you in that case. Why are you telling everyone? Its not like you can end it PhilDwyer, the devil cannot be defeated.
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I don't know why you're so confident of this. Not everyone believes in capital. *No-one* believed in it a thousand years ago, and very few people believed in it even four hundred years ago. Marx certainly didn't believe in it. The most cursory glance at history will tell you that *nothing* lasts forever.
 
phildwyer said:
Idiot. Not only does property not exist, the 500 quid a month you pay in rent doesn't exist either. If you think it does, show it to me (or anyone).
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In a completely theoretical world of fantasy maybe.

Meanwhile on planet earth I'll carry on as normal and not get evicted by paying unreal money to landlords who don't own the hosue I live in, and buy food with the fake cash I haven't earnt at what is presumeably an imaginary shop not run by the nice familly two doors down.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
In a completely theoretical world of fantasy maybe.

Meanwhile on planet earth I'll carry on as normal and not get evicted by paying unreal money to landlords who don't own the hosue I live in, and buy food with the fake cash I haven't earnt at what is presumeably an imaginary shop not run by the nice familly two doors down.
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Look. The matter is easily settled. If you think financial value exists, where is it? Try to put your hands on some. Perhaps you are under the illusion that money is financial value? It is not, it is a *sign* of financial value. Financial value itself is an idea, a concept. It has no existence outside the human mind. It is *not* real.
 
phildwyer said:
Look. The matter is easily settled. If you think financial value exists, where is it? Try to put your hands on some. Perhaps you are under the illusion that money is financial value? It is not, it is a *sign* of financial value. Financial value itself is an idea, a concept. It has no existence outside the human mind. It is *not* real.
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Who gives a fuck? If you can show me a better way of buying 4 cans of stella and a packet of crisps than the fiver in my pocket I'd love to see it.
 
Whether it is real or not is by the by. I don't care. What I do care about is that social relations have built up over centuries, conditioned by the widespread acceptance of concepts like money. Enormous socio-economic systems have developed, making huge and real impacts on human beings, both positive and negative.

This makes any statements that money or financial value don't exist both utterly vacuous and spectacularly redundant, with absolutely no credibility for anyone looking to change contemporary social and economic relations for better or for worse.

But carry on anyway, it's entertaining.
 
To add, it's clear that the chances of money ceasing to hold value if everyone stopped believing in it simultaneously are higher, say, than the chances of gravity reversing if everyone suddenly believed that. Indeed, it happens to an extent in bank runs. But you're taking the argument ad absurdum.
 
slaar said:
Whether it is real or not is by the by. I don't care. What I do care about is that social relations have built up over centuries, conditioned by the widespread acceptance of concepts like money. Enormous socio-economic systems have developed, making huge and real impacts on human beings, both positive and negative.

This makes any statements that money or financial value don't exist both utterly vacuous and spectacularly redundant, with absolutely no credibility for anyone looking to change contemporary social and economic relations for better or for worse.

But carry on anyway, it's entertaining.
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Baudrillard is extremely clear that the simulacrae re-produces the real.

Please refer back to my post in which i state that sweatshops do exist but they are based upon an economic system that is entirely baseless. Uprooted from the real, satillised.
 
I wrote "So originally, its value came from the work of getting it out of the ground, which basically had to be done by coercing slaves, and having a military to enforce ownership of the mine, so its value was based on violence, and the power of those with the means to coerce, to give something tangible in return for silver and gold."

A dashing blade replied:

A Dashing Blade said:
er, no. the price of gold has little to do with the cost of getting it out of the ground however the vaibilty of a gold mine has a lot to do with the price of gold.
er, not neccessarily (Spanish South America was, I guess the exception)
er, a military force perhaps but probably not a state owned military force.

er no.
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Well I must admit I didn't express myself very well. But my thought was a mixture of things. Well obviously gold was valued originally cause it was rare, and because it didn't tarnish.

But for it to be a currency, there had to be a lot of it. Enough to pay armies, and so on..

And it is a historical fact that well before the year of the birth of that bizarre guy from nazareth who wrote nothing, got crucified but somehow ended up persuading much of the world that he was god, gold was a currency and it was mined out of the ground mainly by slaves, working for empires..

And so this is what leads me to speculate, well money is only worth what you can buy with it, and in the ancient world, the main things you were going to want to buy were going to be slaves, land and protection. And coincidentally these were the things that were the stock in trade of the governments and their armies that rounded up the slaves to mine the gold to pay the armies to conquer the lands to mine, and find new peoples to enslave.. etc. etc.

And in your eagerness to prove me wrong, you seem to have missed this point.

Edited to add: As it happens though, I rather think that governments or banks printing money is quite an improvement on governments enslaving people to mine gold for them..

All we need to do now is get them to print it and give it away. ??? well it would be an improvement.
 
ZWord said:
. . . And it is a historical fact that . . . gold was a currency and it was mined out of the ground mainly by slaves, working for empires..
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Apols zArk, gotta ask you from some sources to back up that assertation.

Egypt was a major exporter of gold but is not a producer, documentary evidence of where this gold came from is sparse.

The Roman Empire used slaves to mine gold for sure, but most of their gold came from conquest and found it's way into the economy via disbursements to the army.

The Black Sea, India and the Urals (?) were other pre-Christian production areas.
 
kyser_soze said:
i see that phil and zArk finally found each other...:D
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cast.jpg
 
ZWord said:
All we need to do now is get them to print it and give it away. ??? well it would be an improvement.
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ahhh you hit the nail on the head.

The system as it run at the moment encourages international dominance. With the national impossibility of paying back the loan [due to interest] encourages the economy to spread internationally in order to cover the interest on the original loan.

Previously in a Monarchy, the Monarch declared want of another country to spread his/her dominance.
Now the Economy itself demands globalisation, otherwise the national economy fails.

Without the interest charge and without the Monarch as ruler/dictator the national economy is stable. It doesnt seek outside help to balance the books.

The interest banking system is designed to dominate the world, that is its logical function, without the dominance it will perish.

Iran 1956 had the Shah installed through a US/UK coup, removing the elected government. 1973 the Shah was kicked out and the democratically elected leader was re-installed. The banking system changed immediately and so did international perspective upon Iran.
The US and UK, due to their banking system became servile to the exports of Iran [oil] and have mounted a 3 decade campaign against Iran.
If the US and UK didnt have interest banking systems things would be entirely different.

The economy drives the political decisions, because if the economy collapses people will start to wonder what the fuck happened and fingers will begin to point at the banking system. If this happened the Monarch would be exposed. The political system is set-up to protect these 'national interests' not function as democracy should.

BACKATCHA BANDIT -- nice link, thanks.

just to add a little spice around this Marx structure;

J.B Say
"every producer asks for money in exchange for his products, only for the purpose of employing that money again immediately in the purchase of another product"

Marx didnt like that and said that this doesnt account for people in society wanting to accumulate wealth.

That is about as close as Marxism will ever come to understanding The Banking System.
Instead Marx formulated this;
Money-----> Commodity ------> Money

heh; Money = Commodity -- shove that up ure theory Marx
The Bank of England asks for money in exchange for its produce [money], only for the purpose of employing that money again in the purchase of another product.


N.B A Dashing Blade -- the quote was by ZWORD, not me
 
nino_savatte said:
It's lurve alright. Do you think they'll invite us to the wedding? :D
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Ooh I do hope so. Can you imagine the impassioned debates they'll have in the evenings once they're hitched, whisky in hand, sitting side by side in front of a crackling log fire ...

Bless :)
 
trashpony said:
Ooh I do hope so. Can you imagine the impassioned debates they'll have in the evenings once they're hitched, whisky in hand, sitting side by side in front of a crackling log fire ...

Bless :)
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The wedding's off, unless Nino will agree to act as Toastmaster, wearing the full regalia of the Clan Savatte, and performing his unique version of "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean." He can provide the Glenfiddich too - can't you, Nino?
 
trashpony said:
Ooh I do hope so. Can you imagine the impassioned debates they'll have in the evenings once they're hitched, whisky in hand, sitting side by side in front of a crackling log fire ...

Bless :)
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It's Mills and Boon country for sure. :D
 
nino_savatte said:
What's he saying? I've got him on ignore. :D
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Och, ye timourous wee beastie. But are you sure you're being straight with us here? You are no stranger to the porkie pie - are you, Nino?
 
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