The Trump presidency

[Rimbaud]

I don't think this is true. I think it shows the power of the media (if what's happened it how you put it)

The power of the media is what it has always been, if anything it is less powerful than it was. The bourgeois establishment didn't want Trump either, but the right got him in. Blaming the media is just another excuse for the left's failure to communicate.

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't mean that the media is less powerful than it was (though that's a bit vague). I mean that the state of politics is very much the fault / responsibility of the media. In terms of the mainstream, it's becoming harder to distinguish the two (if there's even a distinction to be made these days).

It's not the left that's fucked, it's the entire political system.

 

[seventh bullet]

I have never heard the word "liberal" in the sense it is used here outside of radical left circles. Which these days is an inward looking subculture, not a political movement. We have to confront this problem, and that involves adapting our viewpoints to the world as it is rather than wishing the world to conform to the way we see it. This use of the word "liberal" is a symptom of this problem.

I am not of the 'left.' Have never been a part of the 'left.' I don't want anything to do with it as it stands today despite over the years gravitating further and further towards a communist understanding of society. We're probably in a minority here these days, but don't patronise us proles on what we find important, or should be thinking about. I understand liberalism well enough, thanks. Your assessment of the left is what I share, and it's the class composition of it currently that may give you clues as to why so many 'ordinary' people are so alienated by it. Middle class liberals are not my friends. Traitors to their class, though...

 

[CRI]

Meanwhile, as teh Urbanz debate the appropriate use of the word "liberal" and whether liberals are are the enemy . . .

Trump ready to tackle North Korea alone. President says US will act unilaterally if China does not pressure Pyongyang

In an interview with the Financial Times, the US president said he would discuss the growing threat from Kim Jong Un’s nuclear programme with Xi Jinping when he hosts the Chinese president at his Florida resort this week, in their first meeting.

“China has great influence over North Korea. And China will either decide to help us with North Korea, or they won’t,” Mr Trump said in the Oval Office. “If they do, that will be very good for China, and if they don’t, it won’t be good for anyone.”

“There is a real possibility that North Korea will be able to hit the US with a nuclear-armed missile by the end of the first Trump term,” KT McFarland, the deputy White House national security adviser, told the FT in a separate interview.

Barring a pre-emptive strike on North Korea — which the administration will not rule out since all options are on the table — many experts believe the US needs Chinese help as Beijing has the most sway over Pyongyang. But Washington could consider alternatives, ranging from more effective sanctions to various kinds of more controversial covert action.

As you were.

 

[Rimbaud]

The left has spent 30 years comforting itself and we need to shake off some of the trash we accumulated since then.

Item of trash #1: The Marxist-Leninist project failed simply because it was too authoritarian. We need to be dogmatically anti-hierarchical organisation instead to show people we aren't authoritarian.
Item of trash #2: It doesn't matter that the working class doesn't seem to agree with us, because objective economic forces make class struggle inevitable. Socialism is simply the organic expression of working class power, and therefore we don't need to actually have a political program or attempt to convince people of anything.
Item of trash #3: Economic crisis is an inevitable part of capitalism, and when the crisis comes socialism will naturally be appealing again.
Item of trash #4: Failure to communicate with the masses is due to being too middle class/educated/elitist. Anyone who gains some kind of public recognition or following should be instantly suspect, and exposed as a secret middle class provocateur.
Item of trash #5: Not a specific belief, but a general tendency towards being subcultural and insular.

Number 3 has already been abandoned thankfully. There is still a lot of trash to throw out though before we can start getting shit done however.

 

[Rimbaud]

I am not of the 'left.' Have never been a part of the 'left.' I don't want anything to do with it as it stands today despite over the years gravitating further and further towards a communist understanding of society. We're probably in a minority here these days, but don't patronise us proles on what we find important, or should be thinking about. I understand liberalism well enough, thanks. Your assessment of the left is what I share, and it's the class composition of it currently that may give you clues as to why so many 'ordinary' people are so alienated by it. Middle class liberals are not my friends. Traitors to their class, though...

Oh I'm sorry, you're not "of the left," you're just a communist. My mistake. Sorry if you found my complaining about counter intuitive hipsterism being a problem in certain milieus to be patronising to true proles such as yourself.

The class composition of the left currently is why so many "ordinary" people are alienated by it? Compared to what? If class composition is the issue, then why do people vote for Farage and May?

 

[seventh bullet]

The middle class problem of there being trash that needs to be disposed of. I agree.

 

[seventh bullet]

Oh I'm sorry, you're not "of the left," you're just a communist. My mistake. Sorry if you found my complaining about counter intuitive hipsterism being a problem in certain milieus to be patronising to true proles such as yourself.

The class composition of the left currently is why so many "ordinary" people are alienated by it? Compared to what? If class composition is the issue, then why do people vote for Farage and May?

Ask yourself why someone like me doesn't touch the left with a bargepole. It's easier to dismiss a working class person when they don't think like you want them to.

 

[mojo pixy]

The left has spent 30 years comforting itself and we need to shake off some of the trash we accumulated since then.

Item of trash #1: The Marxist-Leninist project failed simply because it was too authoritarian. We need to be dogmatically anti-hierarchical organisation instead to show people we aren't authoritarian.
Item of trash #2: It doesn't matter that the working class doesn't seem to agree with us, because objective economic forces make class struggle inevitable. Socialism is simply the organic expression of working class power, and therefore we don't need to actually have a political program or attempt to convince people of anything.
Item of trash #3: Economic crisis is an inevitable part of capitalism, and when the crisis comes socialism will naturally be appealing again.
Item of trash #4: Failure to communicate with the masses is due to being too middle class/educated/elitist. Anyone who gains some kind of public recognition or following should be instantly suspect, and exposed as a secret middle class provocateur.
Item of trash #5: Not a specific belief, but a general tendency towards being subcultural and insular.

Number 3 has already been abandoned thankfully. There is still a lot of trash to throw out though before we can start getting shit done however.

Trash. fuck.
I don't think I think in those terms, and by the way it's the infighting itself that's driving people away.

 

[Rimbaud]

Ask yourself why someone like me doesn't touch the left with a bargepole. It's easier to dismiss a working class person when they don't think like you want them to.

Who is someone like you? Who is someone like me? Do I touch the left with a bargepole? If not, why not?

FWIW we both clearly do touch the left with at least a bargepole because we are posting on urban75.

Anyway, I am slightly drunk and have probably derailed the thread enough so I'm gonna call it a night.

 

[Rimbaud]

Trash. fuck.
I don't think I think in those terms, and by the way it's the infighting itself that's driving people away.

By trash I mean ideas which were embraced as a kind of comfort during the era of neoliberal triumphalism, which now that era is over seem to have proved themselves to be an obstacle to getting anywhere. I think this is a big part of the reason why the left's response has been so weak compared to the right's. I don't think it needs to be that way.

 

[seventh bullet]

Who is someone like you? Who is someone like me? Do I touch the left with a bargepole? If not, why not?

FWIW we both clearly do touch the left with at least a bargepole because we are posting on urban75.

Anyway, I am slightly drunk and have probably derailed the thread enough so I'm gonna call it a night.

Haven't us orfully 'umble proles got better things to be concerned about than having the ability to conceptualise independently of The Left a different kind of society that could be possible? Your reaction to me was the very same as the one you have been talking about re the left and most people. Would the sneery dismissal be better for your sense of superiority by knowing that I never went to yooneh? That I come home dirty after work? Sitting down in front of the telly thinking about Real stuff instead of wank like socialism or communism, even.

 

[Rimbaud]

Haven't us orfully 'umble proles got better things to be concerned about than having the ability to conceptualise independently of The Left a different kind of society that could be possible? Your reaction to me was the very same as the one you have been talking about re the left and most people. Would the sneery dismissal be better for your sense of superiority by knowing that I never went to yooneh? That I come home dirty after work? Sitting down in front of the telly thinking about Real stuff instead of wank like socialism or communism, even.

Well, I don't know.

Sometimes I wonder if the internet has broken the politics of collective action because the very nature of online discussion seems to lend itself to the kind of sneery responses and narcissistic hipsterism which undermine feelings of solidarity. This doesn't happen with face to face discussion. Maybe the internet is naturally a better medium for alt-right trolling and intersectional witch hunting than it is for creating solidarity and collective action.

Fuck that's a depressing thought.

Definitely time to call it a night now.

 

[seventh bullet]

Nighty night.

 

[tim]

Evidence please?

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, "Liberal" seems to be used as a slur in both the US and the UK. However, what it means and who it targets are totally different things in the two places, neither with much connections to the origins of the term.

In the UK, when not describing a specific political party, it seems to be lobbed as an insult to anyone with centre left views who's probably not from a working class background. It's lobbed by folk who describe themselves as socialists and often as working class, too.

In the US, it's an insult used frequently by Trump supporters and has generally been used by those tending to the right / Tea Party end of the GOP. It's used pretty much against anyone they believe to be more left-leaning than they are, ranging from centerist Republicans to Bernie Sanders.

Liberal elitesfor me are indulgent to large corporations and financial institutions; proponents of market forces going as far as to impose artificial markets in situations such as utility supply or public transport; willing to use state power to limit the rights to strike and protest; in general proponents of "small government" Clinton fitted into that definition. She certainly showed no desire to fight to improve the lot of working class Americans regardless of gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

 

[J Ed]

I wonder what a liberal elite and their ideology might look like...

HSBC offers choice of transgender titles for bank's customers

btw to anticipate what I suspect the sort of reply I will get to this is, I am not at all opposed to the measure in and of itself. I am opposed to the way in which decisions like this are used as a legitimating function for the structures of power and consequences of the actions of the powerful under neoliberalism.

 

[redsquirrel]

Well you can stick to the 19th Century definition all you like but that isn't what it means to most people who aren't interested in this sort of thing, so good luck with that.

Even accepting for the moment that your above contention is correct I didn't realise we talking to most people when posting on U75 P&P.

This is a bloody politics board if we can't use political terms here then it's a fucking waste of space. Just as when I'm explaining to my work to my mum I don't use the same language as when talking to others in the field, I use different political language when I'm talking to different audiences. I don't believe I'm alone in that, or even unusual.

Liberal has a long well-understood background within the 'political dictionary' even if you don't think 'most people' understand that (and I'm with killer b, I think most people understand it pretty well) it's a clear, well defined term that makes sense to use on the Politics section of this board. What term would you use to describe the politics of CRI, Clinton, Obama, Clegg etc other than liberal?

 

[ferrelhadley]

Evidence please?

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, "Liberal" seems to be used as a slur in both the US and the UK. However, what it means and who it targets are totally different things in the two places, neither with much connections to the origins of the term.

To most Americans who use liberal as an insult, Urban 75 would be about the most extreme example of "liberal".

 

[CRI]

Liberal elitesfor me are indulgent to large corporations and financial institutions; proponents of market forces going as far as to impose artificial markets in situations such as utility supply or public transport; willing to use state power to limit the rights to strike and protest; in general proponents of "small government" Clinton fitted into that definition. She certainly showed no desire to fight to improve the lot of working class Americans regardless of gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

Nope, won't do. Sorry.

 

[CRI]

To most Americans who use liberal as an insult, Urban 75 would be about the most extreme example of "liberal".

Absolutely. I find myself almost hoping a band of Tea Party folk invades the board, just to see the righteous indignation of "How dare you call me that," punctuated by extensive explanations of the history of liberalism followed by solidarity fist bumps to the misguided but salt-of-the-earth-good-as-gold working class bros.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sometimes I wonder if the internet has broken the politics of collective action because the very nature of online discussion seems to lend itself to the kind of sneery responses and narcissistic hipsterism which undermine feelings of solidarity. This doesn't happen with face to face discussion. Maybe the internet is naturally a better medium for alt-right trolling and intersectional witch hunting than it is for creating solidarity and collective action.

You call yourself a communist and yet seem to think that you, liberals and the soft left are all on the same side in the grand scheme of things. I'm sorry but that's rubbish, communism and liberalism are two distinct political philosophies that have different aims, different ways to understanding and are opposed to each other, sometimes violently. That doesn't mean that I sometimes won't work with liberals or SDs, hell most of the people in my union branch are probably liberals or SDs I still stand with them. But it does mean that I know that ultimately my politics is in opposition to theirs.

 

[tim]

Nope, won't do. Sorry.

Of course it won't do. That's why we need to get rid of them.

 

[CrabbedOne]

To most Americans who use liberal as an insult, Urban 75 would be about the most extreme example of "liberal".

Far worse than liberals U75 is full of what GOP folk would deride as "progressives" basically traitors.

 

[mojo pixy]

Probably even a few commie faggots, no doubt.

 

[MrSpikey]

Seriously, who the fuck are they talking to in that article? The only people who give the slightest shit about how someone else has their steak are boorish snobs, and everyone else - everyone - thinks they're wankers.

While this is a reply to an old post, I didn't see anyone else mention this point specifically, so I'll bring it up anyway.

I don't give a shit how people have their steak. You don't give a shit about how people have their steak. Trump also apparently doesn't give a shit about it.

I'm only guessing in regards to you, but I don't think either you or I buy beef sold from $199-999 for four steaks. If either of us did, I'd probably expect that to put us in the bracket of exceedingly wealthy steak connoisseurs.

When the person putting his name to these Trump steaks has some frazzled beef smothered in ketchup, all it does is undermine the product he is selling in the eyes of those who could afford to buy it. Presumably that's why they were withdrawn in 2016.

I don't generally take issue with how individuals choose to consume their food, but when a billionaire displays how little he appreciates his apparent elite range of food, I'm happy to see that extreme luxury - and him - fail.

 

[MrSpikey]

I think PP has already said that they aren't going to drop abortion services. They believe the whole spectrum of health services should be offered because providing the full spectrum is what is needed by their clients. Leaving out that coverage would damage their patients.

For the sake of clarification - PP don't receive any federal funds for performing abortion services; that's illegal in the US. They receive federal funds for providing other healthcare services for the women that attend their clinics. All the Republicans will achieve in reducing that funding is reducing overall healthcare opportunities for women.

I have formed the opinion they don't particularly care about that, though, so presumably it's game on.

 

[Rimbaud]

I'm sorry but that's rubbish, communism and liberalism are two distinct political philosophies that have different aims, different ways to understanding and are opposed to each other, sometimes violently. That doesn't mean that I sometimes won't work with liberals or SDs, hell most of the people in my union branch are probably liberals or SDs I still stand with them.

In the grand scheme of things liberalism and communism are closely related cousins if not siblings, both children of the enlightenment. They have an awful lot of shared assumptions and morality when compared to, say, Confucianism or Wahhabism. Or nationalism, or traditional conservatism.

And the radical left is tiny. Most people you are going to have any chance of winning over to your perspective ARE liberals/SDs, as you said most of your union branch is made up of them. Courting them would be better than attacking them.

 

[chandlerp]

Our Dishonest President

I'm looking forward to the next three parts of that bigly

 

[CRI]

In today's edition of "Turkeys voting for Christmas,"

Trump’s budget would hit rural towns especially hard — but they’re willing to trust him

The president’s proposed budget would disproportionately harm the rural areas and small towns that were key to his unexpected win. Many red states like Oklahoma — where every single county went for Trump — are more reliant on the federal funds that Trump wants to cut than states that voted for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton.

Durant has already undergone years of state budget cuts, as Oklahoma has been unable to balance its increasing costs with declines in the oil industry, tax cuts and generous corporate tax credits. That has made federal funds even more vital to the city, especially for programs that serve the poor and working class. . . .

She likes the president’s promises to crack down on illegal immigration, which she thinks has hurt the job market, and to bully manufacturers into staying in the country. She said both of her daughters were out of work for months because they worked for companies that moved overseas. . . . .

On a recent afternoon, Long interrupted the students’ late-afternoon meal of pigs-in-a-blanket to introduce a reporter. A mention of the president prompted excited applause from the children, and a small group of boys at one table started chanting: “Trump! Trump! Trump!”

 

[redsquirrel]

In the grand scheme of things liberalism and communism are closely related cousins if not siblings, both children of the enlightenment. They have an awful lot of shared assumptions and morality when compared to, say, Confucianism or Wahhabism. Or nationalism, or traditional conservatism.

Then you might as well argue fascism and liberalism are closely related cousins.

The aims of communism are utterly opposed to those of liberalism - one proposes that (free) markets are essential the other proposes that such markets should be done away with altogether, one proposes that the class conflicts is the fundamental driving force of change in the world the other virtually removes it completely. They are theoretically opposed to claim otherwise is nonsense, and that's before even considering the historical opposition between the two. Did liberal governments try to block the Russian revolution? Have liberal governments not attacked striking workers, are liberal governments not at this moment devolving further powers to unelected bodies or to free trade agreements.