The Reckoning - BBC Savile drama

[story]

I watched The Long Shadow. I was dubious going in, but it seemed to me that the writers concentrated on how and why cultural prejudices manifest as institutional failure. That is a story worth telling and it retains relevance today as much as it ever did.

I don’t think I have it in me to watch The Reckoning. I don’t know what there is to be said at this point in time that is different to what we have already seen through multiple forms of inquiry (official or otherwise). Maybe there is more to be explored but, if so, I am unconvinced that doing it in drama format is the best way. It feels like it is too soon for us to have a meaningful reflective take yet through drama. I’m sure it has been well done and sympathetically done at that, but I don’t know why, other than it will get an audience.

It’s not too soon to be reflective. What does “too soon” mean anyway. Some of the people who were children when it happened to them are grandparents now. Is it too soon for them to be seen and heard and taken seriously? Too soon for us to stop a moment and have a long look in the mirror?
When would it not be too soon in your opinion?

How meaningful our reflection is depends on who how etc. I suspect your take is coming from your admitted reluctance to look at it.

What’s differentiates this from other forms of inquiry and reporting is that the victims are being heard and felt here. That’s not happened before, not in a way that pulls in the viewer and compels them to share the experience. It makes the viewer experience what they did. Coogan being so accurate is an important part of that.

Why has it been done? Drama is one of the ways society takes that long hard look at itself. From Oedipus to Eastenders.

Of course there is more to be explored. As an example, there are unresolved effects of the thread referred to by LBJ that are still echoing round here. Our reluctance is the very thing that makes it imperative that we keep looking.



We have a right to look away from shit. Whatever the shit is. But if we exercise that right we also abdicated our right to be outraged when shit happens.

 

[Poot]

"Make sure you're never alone with him" is such a common and yet heartbreaking thing that people say. There's generally a list of crimes committed before we reach that point that have gone ignored. Maybe saying that it happened 'in plain sight' is a complete cop-out and that is best expressed in the form of a well-acted drama with his victims explaining how it ended with them being attacked, these real human beings. It's too late for Savile and Brand but maybe the next time people don't want to be left alone with a man we should wonder what he's done.

 

[story]

Except that the very first assault in The Reckoning was two girls who’d gone together and were separated by two predators.



Incidendally, I think it was a good and interesting call for the first assaults to involve multiple people. The beating in the nightclub was instigated and sanctioned by Savile but actually done by another person. The sexual assault involved his acolyte. In other words, others were involved, other people did his bidding, were manipulated and operated by him.


I still haven’t looked at anything past the first 16 minutes. I want to and I will but haven’t yet.

 

[Poot]

Except that the very first assault in The Reckoning was two girls who’d gone together and were separated by two predators.



Incidendally, I think it was a good and interesting call for the first assaults to involve multiple people. The beating in the nightclub was instigated and sanctioned by Savile but actually done by another person. The sexual assault involved his acolyte. In other words, others were involved, other people did his bidding, were manipulated and operated by him.


I still haven’t looked at anything past the first 16 minutes. I want to and I will but haven’t yet.

Oh yeah, of course, no one was safe, he was an absolute weasel. And as a child of that age you wouldn't have a clue even if you were with your mate. I was more talking about some of the scenes that you won't have reached yet. Also, there is a sort of call-back to the first scene later on where his relationship with other perpetrators comes to light. It is all, as you might expect, very grim viewing even for the strongest of stomachs, I would urge caution.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

tbf Russell Brand happened largely before Savile died. This is incredibly recent history. There is a rumpus thread on here about him just as the accusations were starting to appear. Don't want to single anyone out, but that thread reflects the deference that enabled this - more than one poster pointed out how much he had done for charity.

Saville died 12 years ago and the Brand stuff is only now coming out properly…there’s one other very well known TV comedian who has similar allegations about them (open secret in the scene etc) and yet nothing.

Not much has changed.

 

[seeformiles]

"Make sure you're never alone with him" is such a common and yet heartbreaking thing that people say. There's generally a list of crimes committed before we reach that point that have gone ignored. Maybe saying that it happened 'in plain sight' is a complete cop-out and that is best expressed in the form of a well-acted drama with his victims explaining how it ended with them being attacked, these real human beings. It's too late for Savile and Brand but maybe the next time people don't want to be left alone with a man we should wonder what he's done.

I used to work with a woman who was a young office worker in the 70s. She told me such comments were common from female colleagues (as were warnings of frequently wandering hands) regarding senior male management but accepted as a fact of life. Sexual assault was played for laughs on most of the sitcoms of the time so no wonder Savile was able to operate with impunity in such a climate. TV was gaslighting the country. He must have mourned the end of that era.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I watched the first one. Very well made and chilling, but not sure if I need to see more.

 

[oryx]

Watched the first episode tonight. As others have said, Coogan is excellent. The vulnerability of his victims is chilling.

(I have a memory from childhood of my parents really disliking Savile. That rubbed off onto me. It was probably because he was a combination of brash, cocky and weird, rather than my parents having superior predator-radar, though).

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Watched the first episode tonight. As others have said, Coogan is excellent. The vulnerability of his victims is chilling.

(I have a memory from childhood of my parents really disliking Savile. That rubbed off onto me. It was probably because he was a combination of brash, cocky and weird, rather than my parents having superior predator-radar, though).

I remember Jim'll Fix It as a kid, though never was into him. He's a creepy and weird cunt in absolutely every scene. I don't understand how anyone found him charming or amusing at all. (Maybe inappropriate tangent, but was he in to uppers, despite claiming to be teetotal? His eyes are always wide as fuck in just about every publicity photo..)

 

[Mumbles274]

I loved jim'l'fix it when I was a kid, see also Rolfs cartoon club and it's a knock out. Pretty sure most kids my age did

 

[story]

The Reckoning being on the telly has set off a Savile bomb. His image Is everywhere. The radio and telly are talking about him again. YouTube is full of it, his picture is appearing in magazines and newspapers. Some of the photos are being pimped to make him look even more predatory and dangerous.
He’s been turned into a pantomime boogie man.

Spare a thought for those who were assaulted by him in real life, who have to see these images and hear it all being talked about. The repeated shock of seeing him leering, sometimes directly, out of a photograph, will be having a deleterious effect on at least some of them.

We are having a theoretical discussion on here.
It’s still, now, a lived experience for who have survived his abuses. No one, least of all those directly affected, want this to be silenced. But it’s a chance for those who weren’t directly affected to consider their own part of the story.
People who watched him on the telly were groomed too. Savile happened to all of us.

Savile is only the big bold brash superstar part of the ongoing underlying problem.


And so it goes.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Watched more tonight. It's really gripping in a "you couldn't make it up" way. As it goes on, there seems to be less focus on the attacks (thankfully) and more on how he manipulates people to escape any "rumours" and accusations.

 

[not-bono-ever]

what a fuckin ghoul.

 

[not-bono-ever]

rotten fuckin bastard. Coogan rally has done a decent job on this role

 

[quimcunx]

Watched this the other day. Made me think about back when I was a kid and, maybe dissonance is the right word. He was repulsive to look at, and not (just) because he wasn't exacty good looking but because of his mannerisms and behaviour, the uncomfortable unfunny jokes, and I think many of us picked up on that subconsciously but this clashed with the contexts we saw him in.

He was always in the context of fun music or making dreams come true or being lauded and celebrated for his charity work. Made my brain itch. We were being gaslighted, intentionally by him, unintentionally by others. And that's why our brains itched, the person and the context were incongruous.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I loved jim'l'fix it when I was a kid, see also Rolfs cartoon club and it's a knock out. Pretty sure most kids my age did

Yep, I did too. So glad Tony Hart didn’t turn out to be a monster…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The Reckoning being on the telly has set off a Savile bomb. His image Is everywhere. The radio and telly are talking about him again. YouTube is full of it, his picture is appearing in magazines and newspapers. Some of the photos are being pimped to make him look even more predatory and dangerous.
He’s been turned into a pantomime boogie man.

Spare a thought for those who were assaulted by him in real life, who have to see these images and hear it all being talked about. The repeated shock of seeing him leering, sometimes directly, out of a photograph, will be having a deleterious effect on at least some of them.

We are having a theoretical discussion on here.
It’s still, now, a lived experience for who have survived his abuses. No one, least of all those directly affected, want this to be silenced. But it’s a chance for those who weren’t directly affected to consider their own part of the story.
People who watched him on the telly were groomed too. Savile happened to all of us.

Savile is only the big bold brash superstar part of the ongoing underlying problem.


And so it goes.

I was wondering about this, did those who appeared in it agree to it knowing this was a possible outcome? And was that a price they were prepared to pay?

 

[story]

I was wondering about this, did those who appeared in it agree to it knowing this was a possible outcome? And was that a price they were prepared to pay?

I’m assuming they’ve had the experience themselves over the years of being ambushed by his photo popping up unexpectedly. His image hasn’t gone away at all since then (but like I say there’s a lot more now). So presumably they realise other victims will have the same experience. And more so for this drama.

One of the women has been active as an advocate for victims of sexual abuse, works to keep the issue (and specifically the Savile story) in the public eye. I guess that’s her way of coping and working through it.

But they can’t canvas his victims and ask if it’s okay they make a telly show about it. It’s in the public realm, and arguably in the public interest.

When I wrote that I wasn’t saying it shouldn’t happen, it was more a reminder or invitation to exercise some empathy while we discuss things. I was saying we should be mindful of how shows like The Reckoning or any other comparable show might affect people with direct experience. Like the Hillsborough film. The whole of Liverpool must have felt that deeply when it was broadcast.

There‘s a show on Netflix about Maxine Carr at the moment. I wondered how the families of Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells feel about that. I wonder if they were approached by the makers of that drama. That seems a lot more invasive and intrusive than making a drama about Savile.

 

[story]

I suspect that there may be some constraints going on here.

I’m going to absent myself from the thread by putting it on ignore for the time being.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’ve seen two episodes. Coogan nails his accent; mind you, he was a voice actor for Spitting Image way back when. It’s pretty much his specialty.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I read a review somewhere that the interview for a book aspect of it could have been based on the Louis Theroux interview. Would be interesting to go back and watch that, how much was said or hinted at... I've seen it, but don't really remember it.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I’m assuming they’ve had the experience themselves over the years of being ambushed by his photo popping up unexpectedly. His image hasn’t gone away at all since then (but like I say there’s a lot more now). So presumably they realise other victims will have the same experience. And more so for this drama.

One of the women has been active as an advocate for victims of sexual abuse, works to keep the issue (and specifically the Savile story) in the public eye. I guess that’s her way of coping and working through it.

But they can’t canvas his victims and ask if it’s okay they make a telly show about it. It’s in the public realm, and arguably in the public interest.

When I wrote that I wasn’t saying it shouldn’t happen, it was more a reminder or invitation to exercise some empathy while we discuss things. I was saying we should be mindful of how shows like The Reckoning or any other comparable show might affect people with direct experience. Like the Hillsborough film. The whole of Liverpool must have felt that deeply when it was broadcast.

There‘s a show on Netflix about Maxine Carr at the moment. I wondered how the families of Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells feel about that. I wonder if they were approached by the makers of that drama. That seems a lot more invasive and intrusive than making a drama about Savile.

I understand, I was wondering about how it worked for them not arguing against your point (which makes a great deal of sense to me).

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Fucking hell, just watched the first 10 minutes of the Theroux thing. Very weird in retrospect, he's obviously all over manipulating how the interview should go.

 

[neonwilderness]

I read a review somewhere that the interview for a book aspect of it could have been based on the Louis Theroux interview. Would be interesting to go back and watch that, how much was said or hinted at... I've seen it, but don't really remember it.

That seems fairly likely, there's been a few bits that are very similar to the documentary. The bit where the interviewer/Theroux stays in the mother's bedroom in Scarborough with the wardrobe full of clothes for example.

I've got one episode left to go, but so far it's been pretty well done even though it's not a particularly enjoyable thing to watch. Brave move by Coogan to play it, but he pulled it off I reckon.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Don't think I can stomach this show right now. Even thinking about this depraved monster and his enablers fills me with blind rage.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Fucking hell, just watched the first 10 minutes of the Theroux thing. Very weird in retrospect, he's obviously all over manipulating how the interview should go.

It’s quite blatant how controlling he is in that interview.

 

[Brayfart]

The Leeds United line in episode four* got a laugh out of me (first in four hours) but was a reminder of exactly how everybody knew what was going on. My dad told me Jimmy Savile was a paedo in the 70s and he had nothing to do with the media. I heard that he was fiddling with dead bodies in the 90s and it all seemed too outrageous to be true. I think Coogan did brilliantly but the script writers could have focused more on how the BBC etc. stepped on any criticism and instead has painted them all as a bit silly and naive.

* (when the interviewer asked him 'why do Leeds United fans sing Jimmy Savile's going to fuck you in the morgue')

 

[tim]

Saville died 12 years ago and the Brand stuff is only now coming out properly…there’s one other very well known TV comedian who has similar allegations about them (open secret in the scene etc) and yet nothing.

Not much has changed.

An open secret to those in the loop but not to those at risk. Maybe, those of you itn the "scene" need to be braver.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

An open secret to those in the loop but not to those at risk. Maybe, those of you itn the "scene" need to be braver.

There’s plenty of anecdotes which show it was an open secret in the wider public. As proven by the Leeds football chants….

 

[Eric Jarvis]

I remember Jim'll Fix It as a kid, though never was into him. He's a creepy and weird cunt in absolutely every scene. I don't understand how anyone found him charming or amusing at all. (Maybe inappropriate tangent, but was he in to uppers, despite claiming to be teetotal? His eyes are always wide as fuck in just about every publicity photo..)

While I initially found him unpleasantly creepy on TV as a kid because of his clear difficulty understanding the idea of "personal space" what shocked me when I actually encountered him as an adult was his eyes. Most people in a group or crowd move their focus from one person to another. He didn't. He would scan without focusing and then laser focus on his "target". Blair has the same thing... as do all birds of prey.