The John McDonnell File

[treelover]

Lots of people saying they would vote for John if he was leader, including some unlikely supporters: he is very very impressive, with real attention to detail, a good communicator, charismatic on the stump, much more interested in basic issues than Corbyn, Corby in the past at least. But would it be viable?, apparently he hasn't been too well, his support for the IRA would condemn him with many military types, hangers on, and maybe lots of others,the RW press would dig out plenty more dirt, the right of party hate him more than Corbyn, though that might have changed given how impressive he has been as SC.

 

[Santino]

I met him on a train. He was looking at Twitter, and when I got to work I found the tweet he had done while sat opposite me and then I told someone about it.

 

[treelover]

OK

 

[belboid]

99.7% of those who say they’d vote for McDonnell but not Corbyn are lying.

 

[Plumdaff]

Any left wing candidate would be subjected to the monstering Corbyn has received. The hesitant centrism of Ed Miliband was treated like the second coming of Mao. I think Corbyn has made errors, and I like McDonnell, but the idea that there's some ideal left candidate the media would like is false.

 

[Raheem]

I think Corbyn has made errors, and I like McDonnell, but the idea that there's some ideal left candidate the media would like is false.

Quite right, but I don't think JM would make it quite as easy as JC often does.

 

[Dogsauce]

He’s quite reassuring in interviews, definitely projects more confidence/competence than Corbyn. Him vs. Javid would have been good for Labour, precisely why it won’t happen.

 

[redsquirrel]

99.7% of those who say they’d vote for McDonnell but not Corbyn are lying.

Pretty much this.

It's like our pickets this week - oh I'd come down if it was an hour later/shorter/longer, I would not usual cross but with Xmas coming. - bollocks.

 

[Artaxerxes]

He’s quite reassuring in interviews, definitely projects more confidence/competence than Corbyn. Him vs. Javid would have been good for Labour, precisely why it won’t happen.

He seems able to react better than Corbyn in debates or speeches.

Corbyn has a line and he'll stick to it but flails when not talking to someone agreeing with him or pushing back.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It’s a bit more nuanced than Belboid suggests. He’s right about ‘voting’. But is that all this is? If the answer is that equally important is a shifting process of moving away from neo-liberal orthodoxy. That there is a need to popularise ideas that give that momentum. Of embedding these ideas in the widest possible way. That this is about the next 25 years as much as the next 3 week. Then, McDonnell would, as others have said, be far better suited to the task

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s a bit more nuanced than Belboid suggests. He’s right about ‘voting’. But is that all this is? If the answer is that equally important is a shifting process of moving away from neo-liberal orthodoxy. That there is a need to popularise ideas that give that momentum. Of embedding these ideas in the widest possible way. That this is about the next 25 years as much as the next 3 week. Then, McDonnell would, as others have said, be far better suited to the task

The election is in two weeks

 

[Tankus]

No
Too radical that even ken Livingston got rid of him.
A real peice of work , who hides it well

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The election is in two weeks

I've been composing that post for some time.

 

[Plumdaff]

No
Too radical that even ken Livingston got rid of him.
A real peice of work , who hides it well

I think McDonnell himself has said he's not 'nice', in the way Corbyn is nice. But much of the criticism I have heard about Corbyn, particularly from the left, has been about his niceness.

 

[killer b]

This is just more fantasy leader stuff isn't it? Mcdonnell is the best media performer on the front bench, absolutely no doubt there: But being a good media performer really isn't all there is to it. Regardless, I'm not sure if there's a route to the leadership for him anyway, even if there were an opening.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

This is just more fantasy leader stuff isn't it? Mcdonnell is the best media performer on the front bench, absolutely no doubt there: But being a good media performer really isn't all there is to it. Regardless, I'm not sure if there's a route to the leadership for him anyway, even if there were an opening.

He's not only the best media performer. He's generated the best ideas. He's invested the time to do the detail. He's popular with the membership.

I'm talking here by the way not about the next few weeks I am talking about the longer term project.

 

[kebabking]

McDonnell's problem is the reverse side of why he'd be a decent PM - he's the serious one, the heavyweight one, the details one compared to Corbyn being the more lightweight, wishy-washy 'grandpa smurf' one.

Corbyns' daliances with causes, movements and people that Labour now find electorally inconvenient could (to some extent) be brushed off as the actions of a somewhat gullible lightweight who didn't really give this stuff as much thought as he should - the teenager excuse.

I'm not sure that you could accuse/excuse McDonnell of that with a straight face.

 

[killer b]

He's not only the best media performer. He's generated the best ideas. He's invested the time to do the detail. He's popular with the membership.

I'm talking here by the way not about the next few weeks I am talking about the longer term project.

He hasn't generated the best ideas, he's just the face of the shadow treasury and a good communicator of the ideas they're generating.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

McDonnell's problem is the reverse side of why he'd be a decent PM - he's the serious one, the heavyweight one, the details one compared to Corbyn being the more lightweight, wishy-washy 'grandpa smurf' one.

Corbyns' daliances with causes, movements and people that Labour now find electorally inconvenient could (to some extent) be brushed off as the actions of a somewhat gullible lightweight who didn't really give this stuff as much thought as he should - the teenager excuse.

I'm not sure that you could accuse/excuse McDonnell of that with a straight face.

You seem to be assuming McDonnell is being punted here as the leader for the next GE. I am not doing that. I am saying that he is the best option on the left of the Labour Party for embedding ideas, popularising them and developing them. There would, theoretically, be 5 years to do this before another GE.

Enthusiastic happy clappers are great. But politics, ultimately, is about ideas.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

He hasn't generated the best ideas, he's just the face of the shadow treasury and a good communicator of the ideas they're generating.

The best ideas - the most popular ideas - the key steps towards social democratic policy building - have all come from him and his team.

 

[kebabking]

You seem to be assuming McDonnell is being punted here as the leader for the next GE...

No, I'm not, not least because if the dynamic duo lose two elections against woeful tory leaders the trot (and the YG MRP poll is forecasting a 1983 type result) they'll be replaced by a younger generation of leaders - my point was that while McDonnell is the more impressive performer (and do-er), he has his own problems regarding electability.

That's it.

 

[Azrael]

McDonnell's problem is the reverse side of why he'd be a decent PM - he's the serious one, the heavyweight one, the details one compared to Corbyn being the more lightweight, wishy-washy 'grandpa smurf' one.

Corbyns' daliances with causes, movements and people that Labour now find electorally inconvenient could (to some extent) be brushed off as the actions of a somewhat gullible lightweight who didn't really give this stuff as much thought as he should - the teenager excuse.

I'm not sure that you could accuse/excuse McDonnell of that with a straight face.

Yes, as I said on the election thread, Corbyn's kindly gramps persona's a plus not shared by McDonnell (if it wasn't, wouldn't be attacked relentlessly).

McDonnell's a fine debater with an impressive grasp of detail, but he could easily be portrayed as a slate-faced fanatic by the right-wing press, and he's got plenty of baggage from the Troubles. I admire McDonnell while strongly disagreeing on certain points, but he's fine where he is.

If Labour want a better frontperson, someone well-vetted with no awkward baggage is order of the day. But hopefully the succession won't be an issue just yet.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

The election is in two weeks

And Corbyn will he gone in 3

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yes, as I said on the election thread, Corbyn's kindly gramps persona's a plus not shared by McDonnell (if it wasn't, wouldn't be attacked relentlessly).

McDonnell's a fine debater with an impressive grasp of detail, but he could easily be portrayed as a slate-faced fanatic by the right-wing press, and he's got plenty of baggage from the Troubles. I admire McDonnell while strongly disagreeing on certain points, but he's fine where he is.

If Labour want a better frontperson, someone well-vetted with no awkward baggage is order of the day. But hopefully the succession won't be an issue just yet.

I don't agree with any of this.

The war in Ireland is old news. He's been confronted on it and he's said what he said on it. You can't keep hammering him on an issue where he's already put it to bed. Plus, he's much more adept on other stuff at ditching left wing hobbyist positions.

Basically he's serious about winning - on both counts.

I am not suggesting he fights the next GE. I am suggesting for the next 3 years or so he's the towering and obvious choice for left social democrats.

If anyone has discovered heavyweight intellectuals in the PLP who can develop ideas, win support from activists for them, effectively popularise them, explain them and defend them and who have the policy grasp that McDonnell has I'm all ears.

 

[Azrael]

I don't agree with any of this.

The war in Ireland is old news. He's been confronted on it and he's said what he said on it. You can't keep hammering him on an issue where he's already put it to bed. Plus, he's much more adept on other stuff of ditching left wing hobbyist positions.

If anyone has discovered heavyweight intellectuals in the PLP who can develop ideas, win support from activists for them, effectively popularise them, explain them and defend them and who have the policy grasp that McDonnell has I'm all ears.

We're at cross-purposes here, since I'm not doubting McDonnell's ability, nor do seek to dig up his opinions from decades ago. The media, however, would: they've already run the N.I. stuff repeatedly, and would got full tilt on it if he were leader. Corbyn's bombarded with old news on a daily basis.

A leader's basically a salesman or -woman. Blair had a famously feeble grasp on policy minutiae and, as it turned out, atrocious foreign policy instincts but the cameras loved him in that mysterious way they do, which is what mattered most. First and foremost Labour needs a good performer who the right can't smear easily. Anything else is a bonus.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

We're at cross-purposes here, since I'm not doubting McDonnell's ability, nor do seek to dig up his opinions from decades ago. The media, however, would: they've already run the N.I. stuff repeatedly, and would got full tilt on it if he were leader. Corbyn's bombarded with old news on a daily basis.

A leader's basically a salesman or -woman. Blair had a famously feeble grasp on policy minutiae and, as it turned out, atrocious foreign policy instincts but the cameras loved him in that mysterious way they do, which is what mattered most. First and foremost Labour needs a good performer who the right can't smear easily. Anything else is a bonus.

The press will attack whoever the leader is. If the strategy is to neutralise them Labour might as well go back to third way double liberalism.

If however the aim is a) win the battle of ideas b) to build a genuine social movement and mobilise the young people who have flocked into the party and c) to intervene then what the Daily Mail thinks should not be the decisive factor.

 

[killer b]

First and foremost Labour needs a good performer who the right can't smear easily.

this person doesn't exist.

 

[LDC]

If Labour want a better frontperson, someone well-vetted with no awkward baggage is order of the day. But hopefully the succession won't be an issue just yet.

I'll bet on it being Rebecca Long-Bailey after Corbyn goes.

 

[Azrael]

The press will attack whoever the leader is. If the strategy is to neutralise them Labour might as well go back to third way double liberalism.

If however the aim is a) win the battle of ideas b) to build a genuine social movement and mobilise the young people who have flocked into the party and c) to intervene then what the Daily Mail thinks should not be the decisive factor.

Of course they'll smear whoever's leader -- which is why I said on the election thread that Corbyn's faults are overplayed, and his positives too often underestimated -- but some candidates are a lot harder to smear than others. When the time comes, it's not about appeasing the Mail, but picking someone most resilient to their attacks. That's entirely compatible with a programme at least as socially democratic as Corbyn's.

It's the team behind the leader who matter most. Blair wouldn't have been anything without Mandelson, Campbell and Prescott backing him up, and Brown as sparring partner. The left of the party now formal control its machinery, with the PLP in no position to impose their will. That's not at risk, whoever's chosen by members.

 

[Azrael]

I'll bet on it being Rebecca Long-Bailey after Corbyn goes.

She's mentioned most, and is clearly favoured by those in power, but, as shown by the Milibands' political fratricide, and the PLP selecting of all people Owen "frothy coffee" Smith as their takedown man, anything can happen once the process is underway.