The Islamic state

[coley]

But women aren't property. Seems an obvious point but the assumption that they are is one of the drivers of both abuse and revenge.

The medieval mindset of IS and their attitude towards women is obviously a driver in their attraction towards a certain type of 'believer'
But the revenge factor isn't, it's simply a reaction to what these psychopaths have done to innocent women and girls, and while I like to think I would behave in a civilised manner towards captured IS combatants, I haven't had to put up with what these people have endured, so if the Geneva convention isn't strictly adhered to? Whey it's not for us to judge.

 

[kebabking]

...how can you defend against that?...

initially, resource the security service and old bill - i can't think of one of the home-grown nutters who wasn't known to the various agencies as being problematic, but they didn't have the resources to follow everyone on their radars so they had to prioritise, and the ones who got left alone were the fantasists, the deluded, the pathetic and the mouth breathers.

thats the indicator about resources - the attacks we've seen have been from the people judged to be at the bottom of the beardie tree by people who have to choose which potentials are followed up and which aren't.

as for those currently enjoying a rape and murder themed 18-30 holiday in the sun, theres a cash cure for them too - more take from NSA's ferret network, more RC-135's and more Paveway/Brimstone to follow up on their good work.

 

[coley]

initially, resource the security service and old bill - i can't think of one of the home-grown nutters who wasn't known to the various agencies as being problematic, but they didn't have the resources to follow everyone on their radars so they had to prioritise, and the ones who got left alone were the fantasists, the deluded, the pathetic and the mouth breathers.

thats the indicator about resources - the attacks we've seen have been from the people judged to be at the bottom of the beardie tree by people who have to choose which potentials are followed up and which aren't.

But resources are finite, start concentrating on the oddballs and the serious players are given a degree of freedom, concentrate on the serious players and they will encourage the oddballs!!

as for those currently enjoying a rape and murder themed 18-30 holiday in the sun, theres a cash cure for them too - more take from NSA's ferret network, more RC-135's and more Paveway/Brimstone to follow up on their good work.

Aye, but as they retreat into the general population? You have seen how the Peshawar attack has been blamed in some quarters on US drone attacks.

 

[kebabking]

But women aren't property. Seems an obvious point but the assumption that they are is one of the drivers of both abuse and revenge.

and?

we could send some outreach workers into Syria and Iraq to facilitate some feminist empowerment workshops, or we could hope that the very public violence directed towards captured IS rapists (which would appear to cover most of them), ostensibly because of their treatment of enslaved women, causes the others to rein in their baser urges out of fear of the consequences should they get captured.

unlikely perhaps, given their not-exactly-strict adherance to logic and reason, but possible. certainly more likely than attempting to bring about rapid change to the prevailant attitudes towards women in a region that has pretty poor entrenched attitudes towards female emancipation.

for the moment, perfect, or even 'good' isn't available. take what you can get. for the moment.

 

[bluescreen]

and?

we could send some outreach workers into Syria and Iraq to facilitate some feminist empowerment workshops, or we could hope that the very public violence directed towards captured IS rapists (which would appear to cover most of them), ostensibly because of their treatment of enslaved women, causes the others to rein in their baser urges out of fear of the consequences should they get captured.

unlikely perhaps, given their not-exactly-strict adherance to logic and reason, but possible. certainly more likely than attempting to bring about rapid change to the prevailant attitudes towards women in a region that has pretty poor entrenched attitudes towards female emancipation.

for the moment, perfect, or even 'good' isn't available. take what you can get. for the moment.

Erm. And, women are people. Maybe they don't matter as much as male people.

 

[coley]

Erm. And, women are people. Maybe they don't matter as much as male people.

Of course they are and they matter just as much as any person, problem is,this universal belief is being strongly resisted by a certain faction of the Muslim religion, and TBF is endorsed in varying degrees by other Muslim factions, I have difficulty in understanding how any society/religion can endorse women as second class citizens.

 

[bluescreen]

Yanno, kebabking, if you hadn't said "and?" or rabbited on about outreach workers to facilitate feminist empowerment workshops you might have avoided showing yourself up as a misogynist tit.

 

[Dogsauce]

IS is, for most, a movement you actively join, not a government/state/army/country you get swept along in. there will undoubtedly be people in IS who don't want to be there, and there will be people in IS who didn't start out as fundie loons but who affiliated to IS because they had the resources to fight Assad (even if they don't), but the vast, vast majority will be in IS because it is the epitomy of exactly what they believe - it is going to be very difficult to do the whole 'blinded by propaganda', 'a few bad apples', only obeying orders' bollocks that is the bedrock of public reconciliation.

There's a fair few who've probably gone along with IS because they're in areas occupied by them and have sided with the occupiers to protect themselves and their families, or wanted to improve their status locally/exact petty revenge on others. Motivation won't just be theological - it'll be motivated by survival and a desire for power too. Adding to that, post-liberation there will be people accused of being members or supporters of ISIS by those with scores to settle unrelated to the conflict. It'll be as messy as any other post-conflict situation. There will certainly be some hasty shavers following liberation.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's a fair few who've probably gone along with IS because they're in areas occupied by them and have sided with the occupiers to protect themselves and their families, or wanted to improve their status locally/exact petty revenge on others. Motivation won't just be theological - it'll be motivated by survival and a desire for power too. Adding to that, post-liberation there will be people accused of being members or supporters of ISIS by those with scores to settle unrelated to the conflict. It'll be as messy as any other post-conflict situation. There will certainly be some hasty shavers following liberation.

wilkinson sword all round

 

[Dogsauce]

wilkinson sword all round

We'll have to watch their share price for a good indicator of how the war is progressing. The Market doesn't lie.

 

[Pickman's model]

We'll have to watch their share price for a good indicator of how the war is progressing. The Market doesn't lie.

styptick pencils will be selling like hotcakes too

 

[butchersapron]

Loath to encourage the sort of cock-chopping turn the thread has taken (whilst understanding it) but amnesty usa have just published a report on the Yezidi's and slavery, rape etc Escape from Hell- Torture, Sexual Slavery in Islamic State Captivity in Iraq (pdf):

“The man who was holding us said that either we marry him and his brother or he would sell us. At night we tried to strangle ourselves with our scarves. We tied the scarves around our necks and pulled away from each other as hard as we could, until I fainted.

“We were 21 girls in one room, two of them were very young, 10-12 years. One day we were given clothes that looked like dance costumes and were told to bathe and wear those clothes. Jilan killed herself in the bathroom. She cut her wrists and hanged herself. She was very beautiful. I think she knew that she was going to be taken away by a man and that is why she killed herself.”

Lots more like that but also outlining what support these people now need - summary.

Noted again today reports of internal ISIS fighting - this time among the groups from different parts of the Caucasus.

edit: this is the video ISIS released about the coup i mentioned above. No killings

 

[butchersapron]

Series of tweets on the german - all from the bloke below:

Philip Gourevitch @PGourevitch
1) "IS is preparing the greatest religious cleansing exercise that humankind has ever witnessed." Jurgen Todenhofer just back from Iraq @NPR
2) Todenhofer, just back from Iraq, tells @NPR his IS hosts were extremely "enthusiastic about killing hundreds of millions of people."
3) "Pol Pot is nothing in comparison with ISIS." — Jurgen Todenhofer, just back from an Islamic State arranged tour of Iraq, tells @NPR.
4) "The Western counties will not stop IS," Jurgen Todenhofer just back from IS-arranged tour of Iraq tells @NPR, while predicting genocide.

 

[FNG]

Might be a mistake to be cheering on the loping off the head of any Sunni with a beard as Isis have prohibited shaving in the areas they control, those with longer memories may recall the Taliban shut the barbers of Kabul for the same reasons.
Elsewhere news of Isis redeployment armoured column off ten tanks said to have crossed from Syria into Anbar province in IraqIraq

 

[Dogsauce]

Jurgen Todenhofer is crazy for going there. He'd be valuable to them, unless he's been used to project an image of IS that they want the world to see.

Either that or it's all some made up spook shit to bolster public mood against IS </tfh>

 

[butchersapron]

Jurgen Todenhofer is crazy for going there. He'd be valuable to them, unless he's been used to project an image of IS that they want the world to see.

Either that or it's all some made up spook shit to bolster public mood against IS </tfh>

He's real and he went there - it looks to me like he knows that role he has to play as a result (he may have sold himself to them on this basis - and i expect german speaking comrades to be digging on this bloke as we speak). Under threat if he doesn't say what they want now i expect. But what they want him to say also fits with what larger powers want him to say. Immediate result more daft cannon fodder for isis and more legitimacy for increased external military action.

 

[FNG]

Long history of visiting insurgents,wrote book on 2008 insurgency with similar conclusions drone strikes ineffective. He's also a politician with Christian connections so might be over emphasising Isis achievements for own political gain, see recent anti Islam rallies in Dresden with crucifixes in the colours of the geman flag for example

 

[butchersapron]

Long history of visiting insurgents,wrote book on 2008 insurgency with similar conclusions drone strikes ineffective. He's also a politician with Christian connections so might be over emphasising Isis achievements for own political gain, see recent anti Islam rallies in Dresden with crucifixes in the colours of the geman flag for example

Ta. Yes i saw an illuminated cross on the latest one - wasn't sure it it was burning or not...

 

[Pickman's model]

frankly if the us hadn't spent $1.6tn+ over the past 13 years they might be quite inclined to stamp out is: and have the wherewithal to do it.

however, given that is has emerged from the failed us foreign policy since 2001, and given the vast expenditure of wealth and the great damage done to the united states' reputation it's hard to see any western-led expedition a) starting or b) being effective. and you don't really want shia forces, be they iraqi, iranian or whatnot, causing a greater conflagration. nonetheless, it seems hard to avoid the conclusion this will escalate into a massive, massive problem unless there are some sunni and shia politicians in the middle east, and in iraq in particular, who can overcome the alienation of the past dozen years to reintegrate sunnis into a more equal iraqi polity.

 

[Pickman's model]

The medieval mindset of IS and their attitude towards women is obviously a driver in their attraction towards a certain type of 'believer'
But the revenge factor isn't, it's simply a reaction to what these psychopaths have done to innocent women and girls, and while I like to think I would behave in a civilised manner towards captured IS combatants, I haven't had to put up with what these people have endured, so if the Geneva convention isn't strictly adhered to? Whey it's not for us to judge.

i don't know whether iraq a party to the g.c.: and is definitely not. so i suspect the war will be filled with atrocity after atrocity.

 

[J Ed]

Ta. Yes i saw an illuminated cross on the latest one - wasn't sure it it was burning or not...

 

[likesfish]

i don't know whether iraq a party to the g.c.: and is definitely not. so i suspect the war will be filled with atrocity after atrocity.

I think if one side decides to use the geneva convention for toilet paper they are shit out of luck when the boots on the other foot.
In ww2 being caught with an SS uniform didnt inhance your chances of getting to a pow camp
Being caught with a beard or shaving cuts wont either doesnt matter what the generals say its what the rank and file do.

 

[kebabking]

Erm. And, women are people. Maybe they don't matter as much as male people.

not, apparently, in areas controlled by is, or in lots of other areas of the ME. or indeed elsewhere. and not liking that won't either make it not true or change it.

in the immediate term you can either dislike everything - and achieve the square root of fuck all - or you can hold your nose and, if not embrace, then lend your qualified support to that which is least bad.

one would hope that the example shown by the female YPG units - and others - might lend ammunition to cultural change, and every extra bit of publicty for such women gives greater coverage to that ammunition, but attitudes are not going to change next week, or next year - next generation perhaps, but i wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Patteran]

“Even if the PDK are here with 10,000 men, they haven’t shot a single bullet,” said Agid. “They came here just to eat.” References to derisive attitude of YPG & PKK to the Peshmerga in this piece from the presumably-corrupt UAE National - worth reading for the brief interview with a guerrilla calling himself 'Asymmetrical'. YPG flag flying over the governor's office in Sinjar town, according to reports, although YPG/PKK seem deliberately unmentioned in much of the recent mainstream coverage.

Some of the usual twitter sources are differentiating between YPG & PKK, reporting both outfits kept vital elements with the trapped refugees on Mount Sinjar. In this context, would PKK denote men & women operating out of Turkey, rather than Syria or Iraq?

 

[FNG]

Attempts to curtail ISIS movements via turkey have suffered a major setback following the decision to release 38 al queedia/nusra/isis affilliates involved in fundraising and smuggling isis fighters into syria from pakistan and afganistan. The investigating officer is now under arrest on spurious corruption and sedition charges.
http://www.todayszaman.com/national...d-35-suspected-al-qaeda-militants_367816.html

 

[butchersapron]

Jordanian jet downed ans pilot captured alive - think it followed raqqa airstrike.

 

[butchersapron]

“Even if the PDK are here with 10,000 men, they haven’t shot a single bullet,” said Agid. “They came here just to eat.” References to derisive attitude of YPG & PKK to the Peshmerga in this piece from the presumably-corrupt UAE National - worth reading for the brief interview with a guerrilla calling himself 'Asymmetrical'. YPG flag flying over the governor's office in Sinjar town, according to reports, although YPG/PKK seem deliberately unmentioned in much of the recent mainstream coverage.

Some of the usual twitter sources are differentiating between YPG & PKK, reporting both outfits kept vital elements with the trapped refugees on Mount Sinjar. In this context, would PKK denote men & women operating out of Turkey, rather than Syria or Iraq?

Not sure - would normally be called HPG if out of north Iraq, so quite possibly. But just don't know.

 

[Geri]

Does this help? (sorry it's so big)

 

[teqniq]

@AFP: #BREAKING Jordan jet was not shot down by Islamic State group, says US military

Washington (AFP) - The United States dismissed Wednesday a claim by the Islamic State jihadist group that it had shot down a Jordanian F-16 fighter flying with US-led coalition forces, which crashed in eastern Syria.

"Evidence clearly indicates that ISIL did not down the aircraft as the terrorist organization is claiming," said US Central Command, the body overseeing the coalition air war over Iraq and Syria.

The statement did not give a cause for the "crash," and confirmed the lost jet's Jordanian pilot had been taken captive by IS guerrillas.

"We strongly condemn the actions of ISIL, which has taken captive the downed pilot," said CentCom commander General Lloyd Austin.

"We will support efforts to ensure his safe recovery, and will not tolerate ISIL's attempts to misrepresent or exploit this unfortunate aircraft crash for their own purposes."

"The Jordanians are highly respected and valued partners and their pilots and crews have performed exceptionally well over the course of this campaign," he added.

https://news.yahoo.com/not-clear-jo...-194113460.html;_ylt=AwrBEiK0JJtU2l8As43QtDMD

 

[Geri]

The jet was losing altitude before it came down. The poor pilot