The Islamic state

[Idris2002]

It was also consistent with their bloated self-image as liberators who could not only save Iraq from itself, but also make the 'liberation' of Iraq pay for itself.

 

[xenon]

It's irrelevant whether people believed he was religious, he established and funded networks and organisations that were based on islamist recruitment and principles and gave then to the keys to secret gladio-style arms dumps (but on much larger scale than gladio) which then formed the material and organisational backbone of the anti-US movement that morphed into wider islamist movements. Utterly crucial after the idiots shut down the army and fired all baathist members.

Any books / docs on this aspect? Just read Black Flags as per your recommendation on other thread and now reading another journo's thing, Inside Isis.

I know that's an overview type book but e.g. I did get the impression Saddam's regeme were keeping an eye on the camp Al-Zarqawi was at in the north, not actually supporting them, according to the CIA observers.

Will give that podcast mentioned ^ a go.

 

[J Ed]

Seymour reckons that there is 'no solution' to ISIS

I agree with some of his points though, especially his idea that ISIS or at least ISIS' propaganda material is the reification of how Muslims in this area of the world have been portrayed. Even the composition of ISIS itself can be seen in that way, those who wanted the Iraq War often used supposed links between the Saddam regime and Al-Qaeda as a justification for the necessity of invasion and now much later down the line we have many ex-Baathists in senior positions within the organisation.

Yet it is difficult to escape the mirage-like quality of their own representations, which have the look and feel of Orientalist tourism literature. Indeed, considering that Daesh recruits are often at best religious novices (the well-known story of a Daesh recruit ordering Islam for Dummies does not appear to be an outlier), if not even cheerfully flouting the most basic of religious prohibitions (Hasna Aitboulahcen was reportedly far more into Whatsapp and booze than the Quran), it is tempting to regard the performative religiosity of Daesh recruits as a kind of self-Orientalising adventurism. Come to the sunny Wilaya of Raqqah, and experience survivalist nirvana

 

[Idris2002]

"it is tempting to regard the performative religiosity of Daesh recruits as a kind of self-Orientalising adventurism. Come to the sunny Wilaya of Raqqah, and experience survivalist nirvana"

 

[J Ed]

"it is tempting to regard the performative religiosity of Daesh recruits as a kind of self-Orientalising adventurism. Come to the sunny Wilaya of Raqqah, and experience survivalist nirvana"

What do you find so ridiculous about what he says there?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What do you find so ridiculous about what he says there?

It's a bit "look at me, I've undergone tertiary education, I have!".

 

[sunnysidedown]

I thought it was quite funny.

 

[frogwoman]

I think some of them really believe it though. And what about the fact so many of them are from Chechnya etc? Not sure that's performance orientalism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought it was quite funny.

Would have been funnier if J Ed had written the author's name properly. Everyone, even the Swappies, know it's SEYMOUR! (all capitals, plus exclamation mark), not Seymour.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think some of them really believe it though. And what about the fact so many of them are from Chechnya etc? Not sure that's performance orientalism.

I'm not sure it's performative religiosity in the way that SEYMOUR! means, either. He implies that their religiosity is to convince others. I'd contend that it's more to convince themselves that their path is correct. I'd also contend that this performative religiosity is part of why IS's public actions are so brutal - they're not just talking about their brand of sharia, they're living and promoting it.

 

[frogwoman]

Senior Indonesian civil servant abandons post to join ISIS

 

[xenon]

I think some of them really believe it though. And what about the fact so many of them are from Chechnya etc? Not sure that's performance orientalism.

On one of the most prominent Chechen fighters with Isis, Abu Omar al-Shishani, mentioned in Inside Isis by Benjamin Hall, I just found this article from September. Excuse if it's been posted already.

'Star pupil': Pied piper of ISIS recruits was trained by U.S.

"
Abu Omar al-Shishani, as he’s now known, had been born Tarkhan Batirashvili 27 years earlier in Georgia’s Pankisi Gorge, a tiny enclave of ethnic Chechens, known locally as Kists, whose roughly 10,000 residents represent virtually all of the Muslims in predominantly Orthodox Christian Georgia.

But analysts of extremist groups said Batirashvili’s impact has been far greater than the small numbers of Muslims in Georgia would suggest. Since he swore allegiance to the Islamic State group, also known as ISIS, in 2013, thousands of Muslims from the Caucasus have flocked to Syria to join the extremist cause.

“More than anything else, Batirashvili has legitimized ISIS in the Caucasus by the power of his exploits, which is amplified by slick ISIS propaganda,” said Michael Cecire, an analyst of extremism for the Philadelphia-based Foreign Policy Research Institute.

Batirashvili’s battlefield successes, including orchestrating the capture of Syria’s Menagh Air Base after two years of failed attempts, “helped to legitimize ISIS in militant circles, including in the North Caucasus,” Cecire said.

“Batirashvili’s ability to demonstrate ISIS’ tactical prowess attracted fighters in droves from other factions and tipped the scales in foreign fighter flow and recruitment,” Cecire said. “In the North Caucasus, young people no longer wanted to fight in Syria with the increasingly marginalized Caucasus Emirate (groups), but wanted to fight with the winners — ISIS.”


Batirashvili’s story also was compelling, Cecire said: “A man with a modest background, sickly and impoverished before he went to Syria,” becomes “a great battlefield commander defying the world” … a “seemingly emulable, rags-to-riches story.”
"

 

[hipipol]

ISIS
The twisted love child born of Menachim Begin and the Irgun Rapist/ Murder/Slaughter squads at Deir Yassin etc
Sadly, these idiots understanding of history is even less than their knowledge of the Holy Koran, so they attack Paris
One day that penny may just drop

 

[J Ed]

ISIS
The twisted love child born of Menachim Begin and the Irgun Rapist/ Murder/Slaughter squads at Deir Yassin etc

Wot?

 

[butchersapron]

Wot?

Don't mate, it's so not worth it.

 

[teqniq]

No shit Sherlock

Cameron accused of failing to pressure Gulf states over Isis funding because of Saudi links

 

[teqniq]

Forget Daesh: Humanity is at Stake

 

[bendeus]

Forget Daesh: Humanity is at Stake

Genuine question: while I agree with most of what he says he alludes to the mass rape of Iraqi women by occupation forces and to 'millions' being killed. Is there any evidence of the former and is the latter not a significant exaggeration, even when you factor in the 100s of thousands killed by sanctions? Not that I'm trying to minimise the scale or horror of the more-or-less established estimates, nor trying to suggest that it was anything other than genocide and an heinous war crime, but millions?

 

[teqniq]

I think he is very bitter, and it colours his analysis. Nevertheless a great deal of what he says is true.

 

[frogwoman]

Anyone see the programme on Monday night about British female jihadis? I watched it last night, i'd have liked it if it was longer but fairly interesting i thought.

 

[camouflage]

“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State; therefore I urge my western colleagues to revise their mindset about Islamic political currents, put aside their cynical mentalité and thwart Vladimir Putin's plans to crush Syrian Islamist revolutionaries,”

Turkish intelligence chief: Putin's intervention in Syria is against Islam and international law, ISIS is a reality and we are optimistic about the future - AWD News

 

[Idris2002]

Genuine question: while I agree with most of what he says he alludes to the mass rape of Iraqi women by occupation forces and to 'millions' being killed. Is there any evidence of the former and is the latter not a significant exaggeration, even when you factor in the 100s of thousands killed by sanctions? Not that I'm trying to minimise the scale or horror of the more-or-less established estimates, nor trying to suggest that it was anything other than genocide and an heinous war crime, but millions?

The report of Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War gave a figure of one million as a rough estimate for the number of deaths that ensued in Iraq following the 2003 invasion:

Doctors group releases startling analysis of the death and destruction inflicted upon Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan from the "War on Terror" in Body Count | PSR

I think that this and other such estimates have been criticised on various grounds, such as methodology and/or sampling size (at least that may have been the criticism of a predecessor to this report). But no one complains when those kinds of statistical operations are used to estimate casualties in e.g. the Congo war, so. . .

 

[frogwoman]

millions have been killed, but surely a lot of the more recent deaths have been at the hands of daesh (at least in iraq).

its a totally different situation in iraq to syria tbh.

 

[laptop]

Turkish intelligence chief: Putin's intervention in Syria is against Islam and international law, ISIS is a reality and we are optimistic about the future - AWD News

Odd. I find the same text on three fringe sites, and very little other news about the man in English...

 

[butchersapron]

Turkish intelligence chief: Putin's intervention in Syria is against Islam and international law, ISIS is a reality and we are optimistic about the future - AWD News

Isn't it weird how this story doesn't appear to have any sources other than this fake news awd news site? It's even worse than al masdar, at least he has some contacts in the regime army. This one just takes stories from salon, the mail etc and runs them. The sprinkles it with dodgy stuff like this, it's basically iranian propganda. I wonder why no other states or media sources thought to comment on something like Erdogan's key ally calling for recognition for ISIS and suggesting they have an embassy in Turkey. because it's made up bollocks for people like you to swallow and then circulate without question.

 

[frogwoman]

havent they run a story like that before with something similarly outrageous being said?

i think if someone in the turkish gov't said such a thing we would know about it

 

[JimW]

Slightly mad story about a pair of wealthy Chinese entrepreneurs with an online travel show who visit ISIS and the Kurds Chinese Film Crew Survives ISIS, Doesn’t Survive Chinese Censors

 

[butchersapron]

It's irrelevant whether people believed he was religious, he established and funded networks and organisations that were based on islamist recruitment and principles and gave then to the keys to secret gladio-style arms dumps (but on much larger scale than gladio) which then formed the material and organisational backbone of the anti-US movement that morphed into wider islamist movements. Utterly crucial after the idiots shut down the army and fired all baathist members.

Fascinating piece here that - if correct - places the date of the strategic islamisation well back into the early 80s. Argument is essentially that baathism died as the organising force of the Iraqi state in the early-mid 90s and the tactical moves saddam and the baathists had made had given the jihadis enough material and orgnanisational autonomy that they simply filled the vacuum whilst remaining in Baathist structures - particularly military intelligence and security. In effect, the usual perspectives of the oh so clever secular baathists secretly making use of dumbo ISIS (and AQI before that) following the collapse of the regime is turned on it's head and the jihadis already had control of the important parts of the baathist party and institutions.

This is the larger timeline problem. If you're asking, "How could Ba'athists become True Believers in a couple of months?" then the narrative of some kind of "Ba'athist coup" within IS is more believable. But Ba'athism had been dead for a decade by the time Saddam fell.

The internal Islamization of Saddam's regime happened in roughly three stages: there's a notable Islamization of official rhetoric between 1983 and 1989; there's the first steps toward Islamic rule between 1989 and 1993; and then there's the really intense, organized Islamization of the regime after the Faith Campaign is announced in 1993.

The most important moment in the turn to Islam is the meeting of the Pan-Arab Command, the Ba'ath's highest ideological institution, which has representatives ostensibly representing Syria and Sudan on it in preparation for the Ba'ath's pan-Arab revolution. At the PAC meeting—which Aflaq attends—Saddam announces that the regime will be forming an alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood, specifically in Syria, Sudan, and Egypt. Saddam had already trained and armed the Syrian Brothers during their rebellion against Hafez al-Assad, and sheltered them after the rebellion was crushed. But it was sub-rosa and could be passed off as tactical and unimportant. Now it was a full-scale reorientation of policy and everyone knew the implications. Indeed—it's quite funny—Tariq Aziz arrives late to the meeting so doesn't know that Saddam has spoken in favor of allying with the "religious trend," so Aziz speaks really forcefully against it, quoting Saddam's 1977 speeches. Saddam allows that "Comrade Tariq came late" and "we agree with all the concepts he mentioned as a general principle," and even adds that the Ba'ath will "launch a large scale attack on [the Islamists] if they are close to taking over power." Realizing what's happened Aziz says, "I may not have been able to express myself accurately," and "I agree with what our Comrade President said". There is no other dissent, and officially the decision is to stay secret.

But the Ba'athists don't fight them—not only when close to power but when in power. When the Sudanese Brothers take power in 1989, Saddam invites their leader, Hassan al-Turabi, to Baghdad after Saddam annexes Kuwait. The alliance with the Egyptian Brotherhood extends to an alliance with Egyptian Islamic Jihad, whose leader, Ayman az-Zawahiri, in exile in Afghanistan and increasingly part of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda, comes to Baghdad three times we know about—in 1992 and 1998 as a personal guest of the regime, and in 1999 as part of a PIC. The al-Qaeda connections are obviously hyper-controversial but the evidence of repeated contacts through the 1990s, including at quite senior levels, is clear, and even clearer with the affiliates, especially in the Philippines. There's relations with the Taliban, too.

 

[butchersapron]

Do read also the piece about The Fedayeen Saddam who were chopping off womens heads and throwing gay people from high rise in Baghdad well before ISIS appeared and now are within ISIS. Odd what these hardcore secularist presidents can get behind when they feel threatened isn't it?

Punishments … included having one’s hands amputated for theft, being tossed off a tower for sodomy, being whipped a hundred times for sexual harassment, having one’s tongue cut out for lying, and being stoned for various other infractions. … [m]ilitary failure also became punishable as a criminal offense.”

The Fedayeen helped imbue ISIS with the spirit of fanaticism and cruelty from the beginning, and by now, with all of the former Iraqi insurgent groups—and their Fedayeen contingents—subordinated to ISIS, their role must be relatively enhanced. The Fedayeen were a key part of Saddam’s Islamization program, internally and externally, linking the regime with Islamist terrorists around the world, and in the aftermath provided connections with al-Qaeda and its offshoots for the Salafized regime remnants. The Fedayeen was a crucial glue that helped bind the disparate elements of the Iraqi insurgency together as it transformed into ISIS.

(Of course read these with Orton's wider views on Iraq in mind)

 

[teqniq]

Al-Bukamel residents ‘refuse to be subjugated’ to the Islamic State