The Islamic state

[phildwyer]

i suppose you don't mean me when you say 'the likes of pickman's'.

Of course I do. Your point?

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course I do. Your point?

so when you say something you allege i've said is stupid and racist how are you not calling me racist? leaving aside that you've shown no evidence i've actually said what you claim...

 

[phildwyer]

so when you say something you allege i've said is stupid and racist how are you not calling me racist?

If you can't understand that, I'm afraid I'm arguing with an idiot.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you can't understand that, I'm afraid I'm arguing with an idiot.

trans: "you've caught me bang to rights"

 

[phildwyer]

trans: "you've caught me bang to rights"

Jesus. Non-racist people can say racist things, just as clever people can say stupid things. I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp these days.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jesus. Non-racist people can say racist things, just as clever people can say stupid things.

it's strange, i know, but i do object to being told things i say are racist when there's been no evidence produced (and it's been asked for more times than i can recall) that i actually said them. so for the last time: put up or shut up.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jesus. Non-racist people can say racist things, just as clever people can say stupid things. I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp these days.

your history is full of you saying stupid things. e.g. all that nonsense you posted on this thread about my organising some bonfire.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> clever people can say stupid things.<snip>

As you have repeatedly shown today, unless I'm being far too kind about you not being stupid.

 

[phildwyer]

for the last time

But it won't be the last time, will it? It's like I've whacked a hornet's nest with a stick or something.

 

[Pickman's model]

But it won't be the last time, will it? It's like I've whacked a hornet's nest with a stick or something.

in the absence of you putting up, why not try shutting up then.

 

[phildwyer]

in the absence of you putting up, why not try shutting up then.

You're the one who insisted that I name the liberal imperialists on this thread. So I named you. It's not my fault if you regret it now.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're the one who insisted that I name the liberal imperialists on this thread. So I named you. It's not my fault if you regret it now.

why should i regret it? it's not like any of what you've said's true: if it was you'd have posted supporting evidence when it was requested. you're the one whose shown himself to be a liar. and a particularly repulsive liar, too, insisting people have said racist things - tantamount imo to saying they're racist - which exist nowhere outside your imagination - else you'd have quoted them long ago.

 

[phildwyer]

why should i regret it?

You're certainly acting like you regret it. If there wasn't some truth in it I don't think you'd be freaking out about it so much.

 

[Greebo]

You're the one who insisted that I name the liberal imperialists on this thread. So I named you. It's not my fault if you regret it now. <snip>

It's regrettable alright, but only because you've pissed all over a perfectly good thread with your little slanging match.

Get a room, have a wank, do some work, or have a swim. I don't care which, as long as you let this thread become what it was.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're certainly acting like you regret it. If there wasn't some truth in it I don't think you'd be freaking out about it so much.

right. so you can accuse me of all manner of things the day after accusing me of all manner of things and UNLESS I TAKE IT LYING DOWN then the point's proved

 

[phildwyer]

right. so you can accuse me of all manner of things the day after accusing me of all manner of things and UNLESS I TAKE IT LYING DOWN then the point's proved

The point's proved by your mad reaction. Also by your posting record on this and other threads. And since we're just going round in circles now, I suggest that we leave it at that.

 

[Pickman's model]

The point's proved by your mad reaction. Also by your posting record on this and other threads. And since we're just going round in circles now, I suggest that we leave it at that.

no, it's not proved. i have asked and asked and asked you to substantiate your point with quotes from my posts. nothing has been forthcoming. it is usual for you at this point to pretend to be moderate and avuncular and say why not just leave it: when the easiest way to leave it would be for you to leave the thread and stop insulting people here by fabricating vile claims. if anyone approached your employer and made claims about you making racist comments as you've done to me here then you'd be by no means pleased, as i imagine an investigation would ensue. given what you've said about my saying racist things, the least you can do is - in the absence of your quoting them - to apologise. i don't expect you will though.

 

[phildwyer]

no, it's not proved. i have asked and asked and asked you to substantiate your point with quotes from my posts. nothing has been forthcoming. it is usual for you at this point to pretend to be moderate and avuncular and say why not just leave it: when the easiest way to leave it would be for you to leave the thread and stop insulting people here by fabricating vile claims. if anyone approached your employer and made claims about you making racist comments as you've done to me here then you'd be by no means pleased, as i imagine an investigation would ensue. given what you've said about my saying racist things, the least you can do is - in the absence of your quoting them - to apologise. i don't expect you will though.

Nutter.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nutter.

yeh? not surprised. you've shown yourself bereft of any claims to moral superiority this afternoon. no one who makesfalse claims of racist behaviour as you've done should compound matters by making out the person they've aggrieved is mentally ill. you're a right shit dwyer, and i hope you only act like this on the web - tho i doubt it.

 

[editor]

The point's proved by your mad reaction. Also by your posting record on this and other threads. And since we're just going round in circles now, I suggest that we leave it at that.

If you're hell bent on kicking off cross thread beef and Pickman's model is going to respond in kind and disrupt threads even further, then I'm going to put you both on forced ignore.

So stop now please. Both of you. The topic is more important than your squabbling.

 

[phildwyer]

yeh? not surprised. you've shown yourself bereft of any claims to moral superiority this afternoon. no one who makesfalse claims of racist behaviour as you've done should compound matters by making out the person they've aggrieved is mentally ill. you're a right shit dwyer, and i hope you only act like this on the web - tho i doubt it.

You're going to explode if you keep this up.

 

[editor]

You're going to explode if you keep this up.

Woargh. Did you not read what I just wrote? Stop now please.

 

[chilango]

Too right there is, that and a bunch of brainwashed ex squaddies and those who link to MoD and IDF sites. These forums can be far from what they may seem at first sight.

And you? What are you?

Y'see, I don't post much on this thread, but find it useful and informative to read. As far as the vast majority of contributors are concerned I know (roughly) where they're coming from - whether I agree or not - so have some context for evaluating the posts they make.

I'd like to be able to do the same with your contributions. To know, roughly, where you're coming from, what your biases and agendas are. At the moment I can only guess.

 

[elbows]

I'd like to be able to do the same with your contributions. To know, roughly, where you're coming from, what your biases and agendas are. At the moment I can only guess.

I'm off work sick today and got hugely bored earlier, so I took a look at their post history.

I don't feel well enough to do a proper analysis but I'd say it is someone who is quite sincere in regards to getting pissed off with the way issues regarding Islam, Islamists, bloody murder and legitimate resistance can get conflated in all manner of messy ways this century. But since they take no care to make sure only the guilty are targets of their venom, and may perhaps take exception to peoples dislike of organised religions in general and Islam in particular, it seems unlikely that they will promote a reasonable discussion of the underlying issues. And ISIS-related discussions don't seem like the most likely forum for sensible discussions on this theme anyway - personally I think attitudes towards the Muslim Brotherhood at various moments including during the uprising, during their time in power and after the coup and large-scale slaughter offered more potential for exploring the nuances and any potentially dodgy areas that peoples dislike for Islamist agendas might lead to.

 

[DotCommunist]

attitudes towards the Muslin Brotherhood

are they totally opposed to the rise of synthetic fibres?

srs tho


on this- in the rise of IS I recall reading an article where someone was expressing how 'MB in egypt showed us how badly the attempt to gain electoral power goes' when discussing how jihadis view the failure of the MB to gain traction- obviously they had their day, but spent now?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Again

Yep. That's right. More of the greeny-brown splatter of dwyerrhoea across this thread.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You haven't made a single reference to British imperialism in this entire thread. Your contributions focus entirely on the perfidy of Muslims. That speaks for itself.

Fuck off, there's a good wanker.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't really understand why criticisms of IS have to be prefaced with 'its all the west's fault but...' especially when many counter terrorism experts have said it poses less of a threat than al qaeda did, that it's far more obsessed with attacking shias and others it deems as apostates and infidels than western targets. The west does bear a large responsibility for whats happened but not the only responsibility. i mean a huge factor is bashar al assad's behaviour but its not been the uk and us supporting him has it?

We can posit that in historical terms it is indeed in the majority "..the west's fault", but that's not to state that all the fault lies there - it doesn't - some of it lies with other imperialists.
As for the present, the web is so tangled that apportioning blame to one party or group of parties is pointless, as well as partisan.

Surely a big factor in their success at this stage is their achievements - providing local governance, installing electricity etc in some areas, running courts, police, a health service and managing to hold territory for over a year in the face of overwhelming opposition from what appears to pretty much every other armed force? And the longer this goes on the more this provides a beacon to every like minded person who sympathises with their politics.

Or not. Sympathy doesn't denote willingness to participate - if it did, Saudi's population would have reduced by 5-10% in the last 2 years - it just denotes a sympathy with some or all of Daesh's aims, rather than (necessarily) the means used to achieve their ends.

I think its a lot more complex than saying its all the west's fault.

Of course.

Otherwise why would well educated people who have had every opportunity in life be going off to join them? People like Aqsa Mahmood who were privately educated and from wealthy families and probably enjoyed some of the fruits of imperialism themselves? Why would people like junaid hussain and mohammed emwazi be flocking off to cut random Syrians' heads off halfway round the world? And saying that the west caused it all is patronising and itself orientalist, its like saying that people can't make any political decision or research a political stance without reference to what britain or the us have done.

The spectrum of reasons for participation any armed struggle is broad - everything from rational choice to psychopathy, as we know from armed struggles as diverse as Northern Ireland and Bosnia. Just blaming an amorphous "western imperialism" is at best historically-ignorant, and at worst obfuscation of a much wider set of influencing factors.

 

[ViolentPanda]

see in WW1 when we were as a people bombarded with stories of the hun and his bestiality and had no other information- it was easy to believe they were nun raping church burning arseholes. In todays modern word IS can beam direct evidence of their burnings and so on via youtube. Right to us. Now if you can find anyone on the thread who supports a ground assault? You said you thought it might happen the other day (at least Ithink it was you). I'm still not seeing it tbf.

How very cruel of you, reminding phil that his witterings should take account of historical perspective.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You were talking about Westerners who turn jihadi. Do you remember what the perpetrators of 7/7 said about why they were doing it? Or the murderers of Lee Rigby? They said they were acting in revenge for Western aggression against Muslim states.

It shouldn't need saying, but I guess I'll have to say it anyway: I deplore their barbaric actions. But I also deplore the barbaric actions of the West, which were on a far greater scale, and which caused the lesser barbarism to arise in response. Furthermore, I deplore those soi disant Leftists (eg Pickman's before anyone asks) who deplore the first without deploring the second.

Foolish calling someone a "soi disant leftist" when he hasn't called himself anything of the sort.