The Islamic state

[Mr.Bishie]

when the likes of Pickman's suggest that the solution to ISIS is more Western imperialism.

lol

 

[frogwoman]

You were talking about Westerners who turn jihadi. Do you remember what the perpetrators of 7/7 said about why they were doing it? Or the murderers of Lee Rigby? They said they were acting in revenge for Western aggression against Muslim states.

It shouldn't need saying, but I guess I'll have to say it anyway: I deplore their barbaric actions. But I also deplore the barbaric actions of the West, which were on a far greater scale, and which caused the lesser barbarism to arise in response. Furthermore, I deplore those soi disant Leftists (eg Pickman's before anyone asks) who deplore the first without deploring the second.

There are plenty of western jihadis who went off because they wanted to fight bashar al assad (who the west has been funding the opponents of). And loads of foreign fighters and daesh supporters bang on about 'rafidi dogs', and the like, its been a staple of jihadi propaganda for ages. In fact the saudi state who has funded a lot of western wahhabism has frequently referred to shia in such terms. Then there are places like indonesia who ban shia from practicing and the official line is they're a cult and not muslim which is obviously going to contribute to a political climate where such views are deemed acceptable.

 

[chilango]

As I've said elsewhere, to always locate the "cause" of movements like Daesh at the hands of "the West" is to deny agency to those "ordinary" men and women whose commitment feeds, fuels and comprises these movements.

Struggle is not imposed "top down" but rather it goes both ways.

 

[IC3D]

It seems far more sectarian than anti-imperialist. The attempt to form a Caliphate appeared as a massive shift in direction that the likes of Al-Quida didn't foresee. The recent ceasefire brokered by Turkey and Iran indicates the regional spheres of power these days.

 

[chilango]

There's nothing remotely "anti-imperialist" about Daesh. The opposite is more true,

 

[frogwoman]

And also ignores the people who might hate the west but dont support and in fact may actively resist (or try as far as possible to ignore) daesh although they may be living under its rule. Id like to think i could act 'heroically' but who knows? Id prob either end up stupidly putting myself or others in danger or trying to keep my head down and out of trouble

 

[DotCommunist]

And also ignores the people who might hate the west but dont support and in fact may actively resist (or try as far as possible to ignore) daesh although they may be living under its rule. Id like to think i could act 'heroically' but who knows? Id prob either end up stupidly putting myself or others in danger or trying to keep my head down and out of trouble

they'd kill you for being jewish mate, you know that. Practising the faith or not.There's some tax they could levy on christians which accords to the old books but they don't seem to care about that much either- the syriac/assyrian christians didn't get any quarter given. To my mind the actions of the motivating factors and thehistory do not excuse the actions of individuals. No one is a robot. Myself, I'd probably end up dead after trying to run back to my bombed out house to rescue my grans recipe book or something equally trivial. Easy target, its a wonder I make it over a busy road sometimes.

No the conflation with muslim=IS is something that is extant, it does get play in discourse and in the press but it is utter bollocks. Like holding Mary O'connor from Donegal responsible for the the inquisition or something

 

[phildwyer]

As I've said elsewhere, to always locate the "cause" of movements like Daesh at the hands of "the West" is to deny agency to those "ordinary" men and women whose commitment feeds, fuels and comprises these movements.

Struggle is not imposed "top down" but rather it goes both ways.

Of course. My point is that simply fulminating against the atrocities committed by ISIS suggests that they occur in a vacuum: that the problem is just that they are a set of very bad people who just happen to have got an army together for the purpose of doing bad things.

It's necessary to remember that this is a two-way process, and that ISIS is a reaction to a process of violence set in motion by the West if we're to avoid seeing this in the terms dictated by the Daily Mail. And there are plenty of people on this thread (naming no names) who seem to have forgotten that.

 

[elbows]

No there aren't.

 

[phildwyer]

No there aren't.

There are numerous posters (alright, one in particular) here who spends his time saying words to the effect of: "ooh look what horrid stuff they've done now, here's a link to a description of them doing horrid stuff, aren't they horrid, I really really really hate them."

Which in my opinion is a very silly way to react to the situation.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

There are numerous posters (alright, one in particular) here who spends his time saying words to the effect of: "ooh look what horrid stuff they've done now, here's a link to a description of them doing horrid stuff, aren't they horrid, I really really really hate them."

0/5

 

[phildwyer]

0/5

Do you have anything to contribute here? If not kindly leave the thread to those of us who do.

 

[frogwoman]

Another major factor thats motivating a lot of people that go is the utopian aspect, the idea that their building something amazing, something pure and uncorrupted, and that romanticised utopian aspect is what motivates a lot of people too, although the reality is a lot more sordid and nasty

If you read any IS material they actually devote a lot of time to trying to portray life in the 'caliphate' as not only normal but better than anywhere else, there is footage they release of ppl from jabhat al nusra etc joining and 'repenting' because they are kind and mericful and in fact better than anyone else. In other words this is a utopia, as long as you follow the law and do as they say

The romanticised ideal of a perfect society is something that shouldnt be underestimated and its given extra weight by the fact that a year later they still seem to be 'remaining and expanding' at least to their supporters whereas their opponents are less likely to be able to put across their point of view due to being poorer, not having internet access and being scared of being killed etc

The appeal of that to for example naive and vulnerable teenage girls looking for a purpose shouldnt be underestimated imo

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Do you have anything to contribute here? If not kindly leave the thread to those of us who do.

You're like a fart. A giggle at first, & then the smell offends people.

 

[phildwyer]

You're like a fart. A giggle at first, & then the smell offends people.

I never descend to the pure ad hominem though, unlike yourself.

 

[yield]

There are numerous posters (alright, one in particular) here who spends his time saying words to the effect of: "ooh look what horrid stuff they've done now, here's a link to a description of them doing horrid stuff, aren't they horrid, I really really really hate them."

Which in my opinion is a very silly way to react to the situation.

Don't be daft phil. Condemnation of Western atrocities is a given the same as that you don't need to condemn ISIS.

You aren't stupid. There's loads of stuff you could add to the Turkey thread about their possible plans in Northern Syria. And what's going to happen with the PKK.

Or how lack of faith and consumerism leads people to lost causes.

 

[quiquaquo]

I never descend to the pure ad hominem though, unlike yourself.

You're wasting your time arguing here Phil, brainwashed lackeys of corporate fascism will never change.

Site is well fucked up.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I never descend to the pure ad hominem though, unlike yourself.

Keep on digging.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

You're wasting your time arguing here Phil, brainwashed lackeys of corporate fascism will never change.

Site is well fucked up.

And you can fuck right off as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

this will end well

 

[phildwyer]

You're wasting your time arguing here Phil, brainwashed lackeys of corporate fascism will never change.

Site is well fucked up.

The thing is, the people I argue with here don't think of themselves like that. They think of themselves as Leftists. The fact that their behavior on this thread reveals a profound complicity with imperialist ideology literally hasn't occurred to them--until I point it out.

Of course their initial reaction is panic and denial, as we saw at tedious length today. But I suspect that, on reflection, they will come to understand the truth. And if they don't, those watching will.

 

[phildwyer]

Condemnation of Western atrocities is a given

If only that were true.

But what I see on here (at least from certain posters who shall remain nameless) is endless denunciations of ISIS as vile disgusting degenerates, calls for their immediate and total elimination and... er... not a hell of a lot else actually.

It's stupid is what it is.

 

[frogwoman]

If only that were true.

But what I see on here (at least from certain posters who shall remain nameless) is endless denunciations of ISIS as vile disgusting degenerates, calls for their immediate and total elimination and... er... not a hell of a lot else actually.

It's stupid is what it is.

Who's doing that?

 

[twentythreedom]

I don't post much on this thread but I do follow it for the high quality content and the particularly excellent posts of a few.

Last few pages

Please stop fucking up a really good and valuable thread. Thanks

 

[phildwyer]

Who's doing that?

I'm not allowed to say.

 

[Pickman's model]

The thing is, the people I argue with here don't think of themselves like that. They think of themselves as Leftists. The fact that their behavior on this thread reveals a profound complicity with imperialist ideology literally hasn't occurred to them--until I point it out.

Of course their initial reaction is panic and denial, as we saw at tedious length today. But I suspect that, on reflection, they will come to understand the truth. And if they don't, those watching will.

the initial reaction to ask you to demonstrate your claims with evidence. none was forthcoming. you then declared i'd displayed racist behaviour. no evidence was produced. you then said my indignation at your unsubstantiated claims proved your point. if you want to make accusations it turns outcannot be supported you will understand if people deride you.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

The thing is, the people I argue with here don't think of themselves like that. They think of themselves as Leftists. The fact that their behavior on this thread reveals a profound complicity with imperialist ideology literally hasn't occurred to them--until I point it out.

Of course their initial reaction is panic and denial, as we saw at tedious length today. But I suspect that, on reflection, they will come to understand the truth. And if they don't, those watching will.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I'm not allowed to say.

Grow a fucking spine.

 

[yield]

If only that were true.

But what I see on here (at least from certain posters who shall remain nameless) is endless denunciations of ISIS as vile disgusting degenerates, calls for their immediate and total elimination and... er... not a hell of a lot else actually.

It's stupid is what it is.

I've been here long enough to know when you're on windup cause someone has pulled your chain.

 

[frogwoman]

If only that were true.

But what I see on here (at least from certain posters who shall remain nameless) is endless denunciations of ISIS as vile disgusting degenerates, calls for their immediate and total elimination and... er... not a hell of a lot else actually.

It's stupid is what it is.

You've been condemning daesh as well though. You've called them "evil", "some very bad enemies" etc. What makes it different to when we're doing it?